Thats not always the case though
Believing in god has never been the requirement to be saved. The Bible says only through christ can we be saved but it also say we have to be born again. This implies that it is beyond a capabilities to live up to the standards that would let us live ever. This set the requirement of Jesus the son of god dies on the cross, but it also implies significant change of heart towards seeking to no longer sin for one to be saved.
Whilst for the first criteria everyone has, it is on the second that will decide if you are saved or not and on this second criteria the first person clearly fail, he is not born again and he didn’t have a change of heart. As many have pointed out, the demons (fallen angels) believe in god but they wont be saved.
Now for the second person, I’m honestly not sure. I know that some people believe that you can have a change of heart without seeking out Jesus. I know others who believe that people can receive a revelations on who God and Jesus is without being able use those words to it and thus would be saved. Technically can you love something you don’t believe in or is the concept good enough? is the problem to do with the definition god? I mean I’ve seen many post on other sites trying to disprove god but starting from a definition I don’t think would be how we would describe God.
So in the scenario presented, for me the first person as described will not be saved because he has not repented and is not born again, the second maybe. The tricky thing though is it is hard from our perspective to judge matters of the heart since we can’t read the heart, if the first personne does truly repent but keeps tripping and commiting evil, from our perspective he is not repenting but I think he will be saved, but this is changing the scenario.
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I have seen discussions on this in many other places. There needs to be a prior question: “What is salvation”? is is just to get to heaven, or is it to transform our inner nature and make us like we are intended to be as the “image of God”, the bearers of God-likeness?
I want to suggest it is the latter to restore us to the original divine intention for us and individuals who are also in society.
Salvation is the a two stage process. The first stage is God’s acceptance of us as Beloved in His Son through faith. The second is our response in love in doing works of love He gives us to do, that is an ongoing change of character. It not only affects us as individuals it also changes society.
The first stage was accomplished for all through Jesus’ faith. The second is for those who are able to love regardless. Whether they know that or not.
- salvation = getting out of undesirable circumstances
- Jewish phylogeny
- Jews living in Egypt
- Yahweh appears to Moses and says: I want Israel, but not as slaves in Egypt, so I’m going to save them. Go break the news to Pharaoh and tell him to let my people go, but don’t expect him to do it, because he doesn’t know who I am and doesn’t have the motivation to set my chosen people free.
- After a number of lessons in what Yahweh can do, Pharaoh gets to know a little about Yahweh, decides that he doesn’t like Him, and figures he can avoid him, by avoiding Moses and Aaron.
- Question: At this point, Pharaoh is annoyed and treating Israel worse, Moses and Aaron are starting to think they;re on fools’ errands, and Israel is still in Egypt and worse off than before Yahweh took an interest in them. How many “faith” points should we give to Moses and Aaron, Pharaoh, and Israel? How many “work” points should we give to Moses and Aaron, Pharaoh, and Israel?
- Then, Yahweh establishes the calendar and tells Moses and Aaron, to tell Israel to obtain year-old, male lambs without blemish, slaughter and roast them whole, paint their doorposts with lamb’s blood, and eat their last meal with their hiking clothes on, because it’s time to leave Egypt.
- Then Yahweh passed through Egypt and killed the firstborn of everybody–from Pharaoh down to prisoners in Pharoah’s dungeon, including the Egyptians’ livestock. The Egyptians decided it was time for Israel to leave and told them so. Israel high-tailed it out of town.
- That’s the end of the 1st phase of Israel’s salvation from Egypt.
- Now how many “faith” and “work” points would you give to each of the parties in this story, so far? From where I sit, the only one doing any work is Yahweh, and Moses, Aaron, and Israel get “faith” points, but no “work” points unless someone wants to give them a point for leaving Egypt, which would seem weird to me to do.
- Next comes the one-day bus ride into Canaan; oh, wait, … Israel didn’t ride a bus into Canaan, did they? How long did Israel take to get into Canaan? Check our source material: I think it was about 40 years wasn’t it? whining and complaining most, if not all, the way; following a cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night.
- How many “faith” and “work” points do you want to hand out for this second phase of Israel’s salvation, and to whom? IMO, I’d say “1 faith” point for each of the humans, and “1 work” point to Yahweh
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Glad we don’t get graded on a point system. I signed up for the course on pass/fail.
Not sure on your definition of salvation. I would say salvation is not just a change in circumstances, but rather a release from bondage or slavery, or from control of an outside force beyond the capability of the one controlled, which has deeper implications. Maybe that is just splitting hares and chasing rabbits, however. 
Dear God,
I’m really unhappy. Please get me out of this mess. Please respond quickly; I don’t know how much longer I can take it.*
Thanks for listening,
–Terry
[*Moderators, This is post should not be treated as a serious and genuine plea for God to intervene in my life. “This mess” is my simple attempt to describe all of the things that a person might want to be saved from, regardless who’s responsible for “this mess”.]
God might reply “You want out of this mess, but my desire is that you let me take the mess out of you.”
Indubitably. But the first prerequisite is trust that He can and will. The second prerequisite is the 2nd phase of salvation: Following a Cloud by night and a Pillar of Fire by day through a desert for 40+plus years.
Faith is works and belief. If you truly believe something then your works will support it. If you believe something, but don’t love it then it’s useless. Jesus did say “ I never knew you evil doer”.
The problem is that many people who sin differently than another is often treated differently. Or someone who sins less or on a more socially acceptable way will think they are more deserving of salvation. That’s work righteousness.
The battle is not between all belief and zero works or zero belief and all works. It’s about faith in Christ and the mercy and grace we get from God because of it and how that love helps transforms us into better snd bette people who pursues his truth and righteousness. It’s not about knowing everything it being perfect. But it’s also not about living in sin and never seeking his wisdom.
Sez you.
Don’t confuse “works” and “fruit”.
“Works” are the things that we do expecting to be rewarded for them. “Fruit” is the result of trust.
- Jeremiah 17:7-8.
“Blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord And whose trust is the Lord.
“For he will be like a tree planted by the water, That extends its roots by a stream
And will not fear when the heat comes; But its leaves will be green, And it will not be anxious in a year of drought Nor cease to yield fruit."
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I’ll try to remember that distinction. Even though I partly believe it’s semantics, I think it will help cut through the issues surrounding the word works nowadays when talking with others.
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No its not the latter.Couldnt care less to be restored here and change.Heaven is the goal not here.I cant really understand people like you who emphasize on “this life” rather than the next.So is your goal to be transformed here in this world? If so you wouldnt mind then going to hell in the next ?
If you read the book of Revelation the future is “a new heaven’s and new earth” and Paul is quite clear we have new resurrection bodies., it is not simply being saved to heaven.
Ive listened to the podcast but can’t recall it to well. It’s still on the back burner of what I’m studying but I’m getting closer to studying it snd developing a real opinion on it.
These are the resources I’ll be using.
On that link you’ll find a YouTube video.
You’ll find a series on heaven and earth.
You’ll also find a fairly in-depth Bible study on this subject.
Another resource is Surprised by Hope by NT Wright.
I intentionally left off some things in my previous response that was focused more on about after we are saved .
Leading up to salvation I think it’s a two persons work. It’s the one wanting to be saved /man’s God.
I think maybe just me and 1-2 others in here share this belief. So I tend to leave it off. I think there is just one path to salvation and that’s through Christ and there is just one path to Christ and that’s to love him including doing what he teaches.
The first thing is that someone must hear the gospels.
The person who hears it has to choose to believe it. The person who believes it must then do three things. They must begin repentance of sins. They must confess Christ. They must be baptized into Christ by being fully submerged in water. Then they must continue to live a godly life.
Interesting. How does one do that?
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It’s supposed to say life. My phone just messed up much I’m border line to hold it in my hand and punch it until I break something to be honest.
Thankfully come July I’m 100% out of Covid restrictions regardless of the circumstances short of a freak new strain outbreak and will be back in a kickboxing club gym and will be able to work out my aggression with a battle buddy. Especially since they are a far better fighter in every way. Definitely a better boxer and kicker.
Going to have to find out how to carry over all my pictures abd messages without carrying over whatever is causing all the bad and and completely wrong “auto miscorrects”
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I think the use of the term ‘works’ is broader than that.
It’s pretty much the same word used for deeds, as well:
Strong’s 2041 ergon
We’ve had a somewhat lengthy related discussion over here:
Spinoff: Law vs. Grace?
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- I’m a “Sola Fide” kind of guy.
I won’t dispute that the term can be used in a manner that covers more than what I said it covers, but let me ask you: Would you have started a thread entitled “Salvation: Faith or works?”
Read the OP again.
Individual X “believes in God” and is an unrepentant sinner. Sound like someone we’ve heard of? “Satan” comes to my mind. [Biologos’ resident “universal salvationist” says: “Satan who?”]
Individual Y is “moral” by the highest standards and doesn’t acknowledge (i.e. believe in/have faith in/trust) God. Y does works, but doesn’t have faith: a “rare bird”, IMO; the kind who puts me to shame.
Given X and Y, who gets saved? Is that a conundrum that you would have raised in a new thread? Not me.
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