Salvation by works and not faith?

[heymike3]

@NickolaosPappas

Isnt self_rightenousness a criteria for God to show him you are his child?

It’s an age old question! I always thought it funny, in a not haha way, how Protestants and Catholics argued about the relationship between faith and works. In a basic form, the Catholic view is justification by faith and works, and the Protestant view is justification by faith alone, but it is a faith that is not alone.

I wrote this earlier in the thread and it bears repeating:

“I think forgiveness is what brings a person back into fellowship with God, and it’s impossible for a person to be in fellowship with God and not bear the proverbial fruit.”

In other words, we become like what we worship. If you are worshipping/loving God, it is impossible for you to not bear the fruit of righteousness. We enter into God’s presence because we have been cleansed and clothed in Christ’s perfect judicial righteousness, and being there we become more like God.

[NickolaosPappas (Nick)]

@heymike3

In other words, we become like what we worship. If you are worshipping/loving God, it is impossible for you to not bear the fruit of righteousness. We enter into God’s presence because we have been cleansed and clothed in Christ’s perfect judicial righteousness, and being there we become more like God.

So those who do these things arent really Christians right?
Or are they?

[heymike3]

Do what things?

[NickolaosPappas (Nick)]

You know hurting others.Commiting in my theology the "irreversible"sin

[heymike3]

Your theology does not define what a Christian is for me

[NickolaosPappas (Nick)]

How so? Where it falls short

[heymike3]

My impression is that others have argued sufficiently with you regarding this, and I have nothing more to add other than to say that it is your view, and it is not supported by my understanding of the Gospel. I wish you the best.

[ProDeo (Ed)]

@NickolaosPappas

So salvation depending on righteousness is bad?Why?

as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; [Romans 3:10]

That’s why.

And…

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

It’s grace my friend.

[ProDeo (Ed)]

@NickolaosPappas

You know hurting others.Commiting in my theology the "irreversible"sin

The implication of your words is that nobody goes to heaven and thus Christ died in vain ?

That can’t be, now can it ?

[Daniel_Fisher]

@NickolaosPappas

Just imagine the wife’s face when she sees her unloving husband in heaven because he asked sorry to Jesus 1 millisecond before he died. Crazy huh?

Now imagine more evil people in heaven because they asked sorry to Jesus sometime before they depart? Mind blowing huh?

There’s your salvation theology right there.

Go ahead ask God 50000 times sorry. You won’t end in heaven.

So, i noticed that Charles (@Combine_Advisor) made the reference, but no one else seemed to comment… the thief on the cross was (presumably) being executed for committing some kind of crime or sin significant enough for the Roman authorities to have deemed it worthy of captial punishment, yet Jesus promised him paradise today.

Also, i’d also love to see the face of those good religious leaders religious leaders when they see swindlers and prostitutes in heaven… but i’m not sure what that their looks of chagrin would have to do with Jesus’s assertion that they will be entering the kingdom before those said religious leaders?

(Besides, for those religious leaders who do enter the kingdom, recognizing that they are there only by the blood of Christ, I suspect that rather than animosity, they’ll be full of joy seeing every evil person in heaven, themselves included, as a trophy of God’s kindness).

Christ’s offer of forgiveness to tax collectors and sinners, through his atonement by his death, which purchases and cleanses evil people and sinners and ransoms them so as to give them what they don’t deserve, are so ubiquitous in Scripture, im having trouble understanding the complaint what you are raising. Most Christians across theological backgrounds (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant) agree that we deserve God’s condemnation, and yet that Jesus paid what we owed.

Again, if you don’t mind me asking for clarity:

• Is it that you agree that the Bible does teach that sinful people can be forgiven by grace through faith, but you simp y disagree with what the Bible teaches, and find the Bible’s teaching to be faulty or erroneous on this topic?

• Or are you suggesting that the Bible actually contradicts this notion of forgiveness, and that Christians who believe that we can be saved “by grace, through faith alone” have radically misunderstood the Bible?

[NickolaosPappas (Nick)]

I never said such thing , Dont try to put words into my mouth. Read carefully what ive said above

[NickolaosPappas (Nick)]

@Daniel_Fisher

Is it that you agree that the Bible does teach that sinful people can be forgiven by grace through faith, but you simp y disagree with what the Bible teaches, and find the Bible’s teaching to be faulty or erroneous on this topic

Yes and no . Ill explain later

@Daniel_Fisher

Or are you suggesting that the Bible actually contradicts this notion of forgiveness, and that Christians who believe that we can be saved “by grace, through faith alone” have radically misunderstood the Bible?

They certainly have as well

[NickolaosPappas (Nick)]

@Daniel_Fisher

s it that you agree that the Bible does teach that sinful people can be forgiven by grace through faith, but you simp y disagree with what the Bible teaches, and find the Bible’s teaching to be faulty or erroneous on this topic

The authors of the bible did grammatical and syntactical mistakes.We all know that .
In my opinion Jesus words about forgiving any sin and such were misinterpeted by the writers.
There simply cant be a thing like that . Jesus wont forgive all sins

@Daniel_Fisher

Or are you suggesting that the Bible actually contradicts this notion of forgiveness, and that Christians who believe that we can be saved “by grace, through faith alone” have radically misunderstood the Bible?

Manistream christianity misunderstands the bible as the YECS missunderstands the genesis narative and evolution.

[Daniel_Fisher]

@NickolaosPappas

The authors of the bible did grammatical and syntactical mistakes.We all know that .
In my opinion Jesus words about forgiving any sin and such were misinterpeted by the writers.
There simply cant be a thing like that . Jesus wont forgive all sins

Reminds me somewhat of Lewis’s observation…

All theology of the liberal type involves at some point—and often involves throughout—the claim that the real behaviour and purpose and teaching of Christ came very rapidly to be misunderstood and misrepresented by His followers, and has been recovered or exhumed only by modern scholars… One was brought up to believe that the real meaning of Plato had been misunderstood by Aristotle and I have met it a third time in my own professional studies; every week a clever undergraduate, every quarter a dull American don, discovers for the first time what some Shakesperian play really meant. … The idea that any man or writer should be opaque to those who lived in the same culture, spoke the same language, shared the same habitual imagery and unconscious assumptions, and yet be transparent to those who have none of these advantages, is in my opinion preposterous. There is an a priori improbability in it which almost no argument and no evidence could counterbalance.

Jesus teaching and actions reflecting such free forgiveness, - the repentant tax collector, freedom for a woman caught in adultery, promise of immediate paradise to the thief, the promise of prostitutes and tax collectors entering the kingdom ahead of the religious leaders, his teaching us to forgive freely just as the king forgave his servants, his extensive teaching about eternal life being receive by believing in him…

these are not minor, isolated, secondary, or ancillary parts of Jesus’s teaching and life, they are ubiquitous and universal. if Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul, etc., all somehow misunderstood this, and only you have seen through their radical error, i’d ask, exactly, how you claim to know anything about Jesus and his teaching, these documents that we have being so thoroughly and radically mistaken on this most central aspect of his teaching?

I humbly submit that Jesus most obviously did teach this kind of forgiveness; if he didn’t then we can’t trust anything about Jesus as recorded in the entire New Testament if they got something like that so radically wrong.

And i also humbly submit that your disagreement with, distaste of, or personal incredulity about the doctrine is not a legitimate enough reason to doubt that Jesus actually taught it… the first step in pursuing revealed truth is repenting of our own preferences and beliefs and submitting them to Jesus’s teachings… and i submit it is a very problematic approach to determine what Jesus did or didn’t teach by using no other measurement besides whether or not i personally agree or approve of said teaching.

Rather,I suggest it is my duty to submit my beliefs, understanding, and doctrine to the teaching of Jesus, whether or not i like it.

If our religion is something objective, then we must never avert our eyes from those elements in it which seem puzzling or repellent; for it will be precisely the puzzling or the repellent which conceals what we do not yet know and need to know.

[NickolaosPappas (Nick)]

@Daniel_Fisher

en through their radical error, i’d ask, exactly, how you claim to know anything about Jesus and his teaching, these documents that we have being so thoroughly and radically mistaken on this most central aspect of his teaching?

That’s just my views. Nothing more. It goes against all my values. Especially since I’ve been trough some things people did which were Christians. And since I’ve been an atheist before and I realized I can’t live with the this thought,I had to conform to something and deconstruct my theology. I have no proof for my views as any other dogma don’t over its.
The difference is the they can pinpoint Bible verses for their support. I just don’t because I don’t have any.

@Daniel_Fisher

And i also humbly submit that your disagreement with, distaste of, or personal incredulity about the doctrine is not a legitimate enough reason to doubt that Jesus actually taught it… the first step in pursuing revealed truth is repenting of our own preferences and beliefs and submitting them to Jesus’s teachings… and i submit it is a very problematic approach to determine what Jesus did or didn’t teach by using no other measurement besides whether or not i personally agree or approve of said teaching.

Rather,I suggest it is my duty to submit my beliefs, understanding, and doctrine to the teaching of Jesus, whether or not i like it.

For me this is a no nom . It goes against tmy own moral standard and how I view the world . I cannot change my worldview for something other . Especially after some things that have happened to me.

[Daniel_Fisher]

@NickolaosPappas

For me this is a no nom . It goes against tmy own moral standard and how I view the world . I cannot change my worldview for something other

That’s why it is called repentance…

but seriously, unless we believe that our own moral standards are infallible, we must recognize the very real possibility that we are mistaken on some points, and submit our own moral standards to that of Jesus. and similarly, we must be willing and able to change our worldview unless we believe such to be infallible. that’s why we “take every thought captive to make it obedient to Christ”, no?

@NickolaosPappas

Especially after some things that have happened to me.

not to pry, or get personal, and intending no pressure whatsoever, but since you mention it, just passing the invitation that i’d be happy to hear further if/as you’re inclined; you’re more than welcome to share more if you’d like, or please feel free to private message to me if you would feel so inclined.