If the fall only brought spiritual death to humanity, what about Romans 8:10, which says that the body is dead because of sin? Also, what is the law of sin and death in Romans 8:2? Does it mean that death is the penalty for sin?
only spiritual death? Are you implying that spiritual death isn’t really the ‘real thing’ that physical death is?
Is your body physically dead because of sin? In the new testament, the early disciples seemed to have a habit of referring to physical death as ‘sleep’.
Regarding Romans 8, sin and death are tied together, and it seems that there can be death of a more serious sort even than the physical death of the body. I think the case could be made that repeated death not only happens, but might even be necessary given that Jesus and Paul see ‘dying to ourselves’ as a necessarily prelude to being raised to life in Him. It’s the way we begin to be freed from our sin (Romans 6:6).
I am supposing [some] will make the claim, Paul didn’t know the science and therefore, didn’t know what he was talking about.
Fact is, when one reads the entire chapter of Romans 8, it is impossible to hold on to a Christian position that the wages of sin is not both a physical death and a spiritual one.
I urge anyone who does not see this to carefully study the Old Testament Sanctuary Service.
This service specifically illustrates that the sacrificial system which pointed forward to, and even prophesied if you like, the PHYSICAL life and PHYSICAL torture and death of Christ on the cross as an atonement for the sins of all mankind who by faith repent, confess and believe that Christ’s sacrifice was enough for us to be considered righteous.
The claim that dying to ourselves, to our personal human desires, is satisfaction for the above-mentioned text is a very incomplete analysis. We are to die to the human physical desires because these physical desires carry physical sinful consequences…ie physical death. They are also driven by our carnal spiritual desires…so the death we face, the separation from our creator, is both PHYSICAL and SPIRITUAL. It has always been this way as illustrated by the banishing of Adam and Eve from the garden of Eden…they were cut off from God both physically and spiritually…hence they began to die.
We die because when cutoff from God, we are cut off from our source of eternal life. This has never meant an instantaneous death.
If God had intended instantaneous death, how could he have answered the charge against him by Satan?
If he simply killed us and started again, offering humanity no hope of redemption, Satan would have won right there in the Garden of Eden…worse still, without redemption, with the death of Adam and Eve, sin would have ruled unabated permanently…indeed God himself would have become its very essence. That is why Adam and Eve did not immediately die.
All of the above is well explained in the OT Sanctuary Service. There is nothing about the sanctuary service which did not make the physical nature of the wages of sin very very clear or ignore the concurrent spiritual consequences of it. However, at the very core of the Sanctuary Service is the redemption of those who believe and confess their sin. Salvation and the destruction of evil are the intended outcome of the Sanctuary Service and that is also why the Mosaic laws are still very much in play today. The Sanctuary Service ends with the final laying on of hands on the head of the scapegoat…the placing of responsibility for all sin on the head of Lucifer/Satan Himself and his casting out into the wilderness to die. Christians generally believe this will be fulfilled exactly as prophesied/written in the book of Revelation 20 and that this has not yet happened. contrary to some silly claims, the culmination of the Bible story is not at the cross…it is with the final destruction of Satan and all evil is purged from the universe…and that is very much still in the future. Therefore, the Sanctuary Service is not yet complete…so the Mosaic laws (10 commandments) are still very much with us and intended to be kept…including the 4th!
If all of this was simply a spiritual death, why are Christians making the claim that the second coming will be a physical event that “every eye shall see” and where those who are alive but not saved will cry out to the rocks “fall on us and hide us” (Rev 6:15)? Clearly an individual crying out to a rock to fall on them is not a spiritual thing is it! Whilst the language may very be metaphorical, it is very clearly depicting a literal event in the future at the second coming of Christ. The evil individuals who are alive will not be able to gaze upon the glory of Christ at this time and “they will be killed by the brightness of His coming” (@2Thess 2:8) This illustration also explains why Adam and Eve hid themselves from the face of God in the garden of Eden, as a result of their sin, they could not face him…the consequences of sin had already started to take its toll on them. The spiritual consequence of hiding was their guilt, the physical… His glory was too much for them to endure. So the banishment from the Garden was far more than merely a spiritual event.
I am sure I missed something, but you have referred often to the santuary service, sometime upper case, sometimes lower. Are you referring the to the book by M. L. Anreasen or to another publication? Or perhaps a ritual service in the SDA denomination? Excuse my ignorance of where you are coming from.
I will say that the quote from Revelation about asking the rocks to fall on them is typical of the imagery of apocalyptic literature and like the rest of Revelation is not seen as particularly literal. And who is to say that spiritual death is not more real than physical death, just as spiritual rebirth is seen as more important than physical birth, though both are the human experience.
A few things. One thing first is that while skimming I saw “ Biologos followers “ and to be clear, Biologos is not a denomination or a philosophy. It’s an organization that is focused on harmonizing Science and Christianity. I don’t believe what many in Biologos believes because Biologos believes it. I believe in many of the same things and came to Biologos because many here also believes in the same thing.
With that said .
The question is a really good question. To me it means you’ve been wrestling internally with these things and looking at scripture and believe that you’ve potentially found this “ahah” verse. But I think a bit more context helps to clarify it.
New American Standard Bible
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
12 So then, brothers and sisters, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13 for if you are living in accord with the flesh, you are going to die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
In verse 13 it states if you live according to the flesh you’ll die but if you live according to the spirit you will live. So I’m curious…. Is your physically body going to die? If so, does that mean you live according to the flesh? Or is flesh and spirit and the dead of the body here going beyond what this life means?
I’ll bring up another verse on how I understand this.
New American Standard Bible
14 But I confess this to you, that in accordance with the Way, which they call a sect, I do serve the God of our fathers, believing everything that is in accordance with the Law and is written in the Prophets; 15 having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
In these verses it says that the righteous and the wicked will both die, and they will both be resurrected. So we all live once, die, and then we are resurrected at some point. Those in Christ and those outside of Christ. Those in Christ resurrect and have eternal life. Because obviously, we all die once and so the verses in Romans 8 can’t be referring to this lifetime. But the next.
New American Standard Bible
44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or as a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it for one of the least of these, you did not do it for Me, either.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
So there it says one will be resurrected to eternal life. The other to eternal punishment. So only those saved through Christ will have eternal life and those saved not under his grace and mercy will receive the eternal punishment. According to Romans 8 that is death. They don’t get eternal life. Their punishment is to die again and remain dead forever.
It’s why God says this.
New American Standard Bible
28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
So what is hell? Hell is not a place but an event. Revelation says that hell is the second death. It’s where hades and death is cast and those are not beings but events. Hades is death and death is the opposite of eternal life.
So Romans 8 is not saying some of us won’t die. It’s saying some of us potentially won’t be resurrected into eternal life. So that’s the same death Adam faced in the story. It’s why he did not drop over dead but continued to live a long life. But something did die on that day and it was the death of their perfect relationship. Unless he repented, within the story, he will be resurrected and face death a second and eternal death.
Firstly, I hold a bachelor of Education Degree…I am university trained. So I do not need to obtain my understanding of Biblical Sanctuary services from reading references outside of the Bible. I am not sure why you continue to push such claims…one day perhaps you may accept that Biblical theology is not something that we obtain as a result of scientific method!
Secondly, the author of the book you speak of is Andreason and yes I have read the book (anyone who has done any in depth study of the biblical sanctuary service is almost certain to have come across that book because he writes extensively on it)
Third, it is a fallacy that biblical imagery does not result in real world events…and that is a fundamental theological mistake most on this forum make. They believe that scientific method is the only way in which one may interpret the relevance of biblical prophecies to us. Let me give a classic example:
Daniel Ch 2
1In the second year of his reign, Nebuchadnezzar had dreams that troubled his spirit, and sleep escaped him. 2So the king gave orders to summon the magicians, enchanters, sorcerers, and astrologersa to explain his dreams. When they came and stood before the king, 3he said to them, “I have had a dream, and my spirit is anxious to understand it.”
25Arioch hastily brought Daniel before the king and said to him, “I have found a man among the exiles from Judah who will tell the king the interpretation.”
26The king responded to Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, “Are you able to tell me what I saw in the dream, as well as its interpretation?”
27Daniel answered the king, “No wise man, enchanter, medium, or magician can explain to the king the mystery of which he inquires. 28But there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries, and He has made known to King Nebuchadnezzar what will happen in the latter days.
The dream that Nebuchadnezzar had was of a grand statue with a head of gold…which Daniel explained represented Nebuchadnezzar himself.
Clearly the dream was metaphorical in the way in which it illustrated its storyline, however, the meaning of Nebuchanezzars dream was very literal…as were other dreams that we are told about regarding Nebuchadnezzar going mad for 7 years and also of the demise of his grandson Belshazzar when Babylon was overthrown by the Medes and Persians.
The bible is full of metaphorical language, however, these are not all fictitious or allegorical stories. Almost always, there are real outcomes…and the illustration I gave in Revelation 20 of Christ’s second coming is definitely not an allegory. I am rather suprised to read your statement…it clearly shows that you are not waiting for the return of Christ at the second coming.
“I will say that the quote from Revelation about asking the rocks to fall on them is typical of the imagery of apocalyptic literature and like the rest of Revelation is not seen as particularly literal”
My theological understanding is that few theologians interpret Rev 20 in such a way as to expect that the Rocks will suddenly grow into living intelligent beings and fall on the wicked…the Bible does not make such a claim, however, clearly the point is, people will go to extraordinary lengths to hide themselves from the Second Coming of Christ…this does not mean the entire story is a fabrication (which is how you guys attempt to twist the creation account and flood stories based on a few simple theological interpretations that are grossly incorrect and inconsistent with the rest of the bible account.)
Anyway, the relevance of the Sancturary is that it provides us with a literal model of the entire plan of salvation. That is why anyone who is unsure of their theological position and doctrines needs to forget everything else and deeply study the Sanctuary and its Services. These are vital in developing a correct understanding of scripture.
What I find ironic is that denominations who have poor biblical theology also are the same ones who discredit the Mosaic doctrines claiming they are outdated and superseded by the “new commandment” Christ apparently gave us. What they fail to correctly understand is that the New commandments we were given (love God and thy neighbour as thyself) are exactly how the Mosaic 10 commandments are catalogued:
commandments 1-3 = Love God
command 4 = Remember the Sabbath (Christ is the Sabbath and this commandment is critical to our salvation)
commands 5-10 = Love thy neighbour
Clearly when it says the body of those in Christ is dead because of sin, it is not using the word “dead” in the usual way. Our bodies are clearly alive. How then do we understand this? We look at the context, where this follows Romans 8:1-9
Romans 8 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, indeed it cannot; 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
Thus “the body is dead” means there is no life for those who live according to the flesh setting their minds on things of the flesh, because the body is incapable of following the law.
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