Revisid: "Did Adam and Eve realise they were naked ..."

Sorry, but even tho’ this is old news from couple of years ago, I thought some of you may find this of interest. Here’s the source of the text quoted below: Slavery or Agency: Reinterpreting Genesis 2:15-17

Textual clues support this reading. Genesis 2:25’s “naked and not ashamed” (‘*arummim*) reflects pre-pubescent innocence, shifting in 3:7 to “they knew they were naked” (‘*erummim*), a term tied to sexual cognizance (*ayrom*, cf. Leviticus 18:6–19), followed by genital-specific coverings. Genesis 4:1’s “knew” (*yada*‘, *wattar*, “she conceived”) confirms *hadda‘at tov var’s* procreative outcome, as Marc Zvi Brettler (How to Read the Jewish Bible, 2005) argues, linking it to fertility. Ibn Ezra (12th century) and Nahum Sarna (Genesis: The JPS Torah Commentary, 1989) reinforce this, tying *hadda‘at tov vara* to sexual potential, while Claus Westermann (Genesis 1–11, 1984) notes its prevalence among modern scholars (e.g., Gunkel, Schmidt).

Here the text (and many (most?) interested scholars) should be interpreted that before eating the fruit they were “arummim.” This is the nakedness of adolescents, or adults taking showers or changing clothes. After eating the fruit they experience 'erummim. The same Hebrew root, but vocalized differently and meaning nakedness associated with eroticism.

Cheers,

Just reading the abstract . . . .

It’s an interesting thesis, but I think Peterson is being overly narrow in identifying sexual awareness as being involved and identifying it as “the knowledge gained”. The difference in the terms works just as well if sexual awareness, or awareness of nakedness, is a symptom of “knowledge gained” rather than the sum total. Indeed the difference can be seen as simply a shift from not caring about being seen by all and sundry and that of being concerned about how one sees one’s own body along with the recognition that one’s body can interact in a specific way with other bodies – constituting not necessarily eroticism itself but the beginnings of it.

Now to read the paper!

I can accept the “warning” argument; it does make better sense of the Hebrew.
But the argument about expulsion from the Garden I think fails; I can’t see where the idea that expulsion was due to fear of overpopulation by immortals works since the very warning says they will be no longer immortal, and thus there is a contradiction in the argument. It also fails to take into consideration the nature of the Garden as a place where heaven and earth overlapped.

I was hoping for an exposition/analysis of “dying you shall die”; that seems essential to the argument about expulsion, especially given the connection to “in the day you eat of it”.

Interesting but not earth-shaking.

1 Like

Greetings, @St.Roymond

Just in case others click the referenced URL, I’ll simplify some concepts because the article is destined for JBL and is quite dense with lots of references. So, here are some simplifications:

  1. There are two ways of expressing “naked” in biblical Hebrew. The are the same word but vocalized differently:

a) 'arummim - non-sexual, e.g., how an adolescent feels when taking a bath.
b) 'erummim - sexual cognizance, erotic.

Prior to eating the fruit, the nakedness of the couple was described as (a). After eating the fruit, the nakedness was described as (b). Eating the fruit evidently caused the couple to become sexually aware (very much like going through puberty).

Blessings,

Neither puberty nor eating a fruit alters awareness of nudity or sexuality. It is sexual experience or communication about sex with others which does this.

They have different consonants, so they’re different words in a lexicon; they do, however, come from the same root.
I think the article is reaching for something the words don’t necessarily say, but I’d need to look it up in my TDOT (which seems to be in storage!) for a better take. Given how rarely either word occurs in the Masoretic text making a case at all is really a stretch, and looking at the few verses that use them I don’t see the distinction that’s being made.

The author of the Genesis 2:15-17 disagrees with you. Perhaps you could marshal a counter argument anchored in the biblical text?

Thanks for the response.

Puberty certainly does since new hormones start flowing!

'erumim is not uncommon. I presume you’re reading Leviticus 18? Nakedness ('erumin in this case) is literally ‘shame’ at being caught naked. Why shame? Because nakedness is shameful outside of a proper sexual context (e.g., marriage, adolescence).

From Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (ref 1692b)

Hence, nakedness in the OT … is a symbol of human shame,… and cannot be tolerated outside proper sexual relationships (see the prohibitions of incest in Lev 18 and 20), nor may it occur in worship (Ex 20:26; cf. 28:42).

Blessings

1 Like

Revisid: "Did Adam and Eve realise they were naked ..."?

This is straw plucking in the hope of drawing out a winner. It cannot ignore texts like the following where it is abundantly vlear that having sex has nothing to do with sin, or even learning.

God clearly.commanded all creation to increase in number and cover or populate the earth. No amount of playing word games can alter the theme that the earth was created to be filled with life from the getgo. God commanded sea life and land animals to procreate, and he commanded Adam and Eve to breed as well. Any claim Adam has no idea about this theme until after they sinned, their eyes were opened, he realised Eve had tits and he could screw her silly, is fanciful and quite stupid to be honest.

What that promotes is the idea procration is by nature unGodly and an abomination.

We can then go further and make claims that women are evil and sexual contact with them should be avoided. This idea causes enormous confusion among Christians as is clearly.evidenced in ancient historical times with Catholic church leadership and look at the strife caused by that with homo priests all over the place! God clearly made us to enjoy sex…its not because of sin that we enjoy it, He designed it into us.

Genesis 1

22Then God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the waters of the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.”

24And God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, land crawlers, and beasts of the earth according to their kinds.”

28God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth

24For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.g

1And Adam had relations with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain.a

“With the help of the LORD I have brought forth a man,” she said.

No. Awareness is not a function of the molecules in your blood.

Uh… that is not Genesis 1. That is Genesis 4. Why did Adam only have relations with his wife AFTER the fall?

Right… so you teach your children to get right to it, eh?

What this promotes is rampant fornication, teen pregnancy, and pedophilia. We can go further and turn this into a claim promoting incest. This seems to be the cause of enormous confusion among Christians which has clergy sexually abusing children. Your god clearly doesn’t believe in abstinence, purity, or chastity.

The challenge (not criticisms) I have with many of the responses in the BioLogos forums generally and a few in this thread specifically is the assumption that the first creation story (chapter 1) has anything whatsoever to do with chapters 2,3, and 4. Chapter 1 is a priestly document whose authors were opposed to all documents arising from other scribal traditions. In fact, they were so opposed that it appears that they were not shy about inserting their view into the book of Genesis (e.g., much of Genesis chapter 5 is an obvious Priestly insertion - the image formula and the lineage are very Priestly).

Moreover, Chapter 1 did not come into view until somewhere between 350 BCE to 450 BCE. By contrast, the second story (chapters 2, 3, and 4) issued from an oral tradition dating to around 1100 BCE that was later put to written form at about 950 BCE. In other words, the first creation story had, literally, nothing to do with the second. Chapters 2,3, 4, 6-11 were likely in existence for around 5 centuries before the first creation story. In fact a number of well-known scholars hold the the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 6th chapters are prologue to the Flood story. A thesis to which I subscribe.

So what you might ask. Here’s the problem, using the first creation story to inform arguments about the second makes little sense historically, linguistic, or scripturally and is certainly not consistent with the history of how the Bible came to be created.

One final point and I’ll be done with this thread (I think, :wink:) I have no desire to persuade any responder to my view. If I do respond it’s either to correct what I perceive is a misunderstanding of something I wrote or to a question directed to me. So, thanks for the responses and enjoy the discussion.

Enjoy,

One occurrence is “not uncommon”? That’s the total appearances of עֵֽירֻמִּ֖ם. And in all forms it occurs just ten times!

The other word shows up all of sixteen times.

And both, according to BDB, can indicate innocence or vulnerability; Strong’s agrees on this one. Indeed, reading the full entry in TWOT, it shows a definite a priori bias.

Statistically there is no difference in the rate of homosexuality among priests than there is among teachers.

That’s a rather late view – I’ve read papers arguing for the first Creation account predating the kingdom period.

This is true regardless of date.

1 Like

I wasn’t referring to 'erummim specifically. I was referring to its root, which occurs 110 times, spanning most of the books of the Hebrew Bible. Anyway, I’m aware of no translation that contradicts my point – one vocalization infers no shame, the other infers shame. Moreover, I’m not the lone ranger. As far as I know, sexuality is in view here and that interpretation seems to hold for most scholars of whom I’m aware.

In any case, I may well be wrong and would be honestly interested in how would you would interpret “shame” in the context of this verse?

Cheers,

I don’t see any shame involved in 3:7, just vulnerability. I see it as a reflection of their loss of harmony with the rest of the Garden, a sudden feeling that they were now strangers and out of sync with Eden.

  1. im sorry but you are going to have to actually cite some real references for this there…simply making blanket statements without any support is nonsensical.
  2. Your claim that Genesis Chapter 2 is not a continuation of chapter 1…may i ask that you actually show theologically with biblical proofs that your claim there, and also the claims of the references you apparently have, are true? (i can show very comprehensively from the bible directly that your claim is theologically wrong and I can also show using modern examples why your claim is wrong)

Its all good and well to make claims from external sources, however, those sources must be able to theologically support their own claims…failure to do this is nothing more than me saying “i saw God walking down the street yesterday”, then one of my kids saying, “God walked down the street yesterday, my dad saw him”!

Neither of those statements can be used as proof…largely because i have shown no evidence that i actually saw God…i just made a blanket statement and no other correlating evidence is available to support the original statement of claim. So my son using me as evidence is fundamentally flawed and has a very high probability of being wrong both intellectually/academically and also scientifically.

The Bible is not like that. We know biblical theology because many writers have documented statements that correlate with each other and the evidences are both physical and eyewitness testimony in those correlations across a large range of topics that are all inter-related/connected.

I hope you understand the serious problem you have in your post there!

Scholars Who Argue Genesis 2 Predates Genesis 1

Julius Wellhausen (1844–1918)
Contribution: Wellhausen, a foundational figure in the Documentary Hypothesis, argued in his seminal work Prolegomena to the History of Israel (1878) that the Yahwist (J) source, which includes Genesis 2:4b–25, is older than the Priestly (P) source, which includes Genesis 1:1–2:4a.

Arguments:
Linguistic and stylistic evidence: The J account in Genesis 2 uses a more anthropomorphic, narrative-driven style (e.g., God as a potter forming man from dust, walking in the garden) and the divine name YHWH, which Wellhausen associated with an earlier, less abstract theology. In contrast, Genesis 1 uses Elohim and a structured, cosmic framework, suggesting a later, more systematized theology.

Historical context: Wellhausen dated J to the 9th–8th century BCE (during the divided monarchy of Israel and Judah) and P to the 6th–5th century BCE (during or after the Babylonian Exile). The earthy, localized focus of Genesis 2 reflects an earlier agrarian society, while Genesis 1’s universal scope aligns with the Priestly concerns of exile and restoration.

Theological development: The J account’s focus on human relationships and a single garden contrasts with P’s emphasis on cosmic order and Sabbath, which Wellhausen saw as a later priestly agenda.

Hermann Gunkel (1862–1932)
Contribution: In his work Genesis (1901), Gunkel, a pioneer of form criticism, argued that Genesis 2 reflects older oral traditions that predate the more formal, written Priestly account in Genesis 1.

Arguments:
Oral tradition: Genesis 2’s storytelling style, with its vivid imagery and anthropomorphic depiction of God, suggests roots in ancient Israelite oral traditions, potentially from the 10th–9th century BCE or earlier. Genesis 1, with its repetitive, liturgical structure, appears as a later, written composition.

Mythological parallels: Gunkel noted that Genesis 2 shares motifs with older Near Eastern creation stories (e.g., humans formed from earth), suggesting it draws on earlier cultural traditions, while Genesis 1’s abstract monotheism counters Babylonian cosmology, pointing to a post-exilic context.

Genre: Genesis 2 is a narrative myth, while Genesis 1 is a cosmological hymn, which Gunkel saw as a later development in Israelite religion.

Gerhard von Rad (1901–1971)
Contribution: In his commentary Genesis (1949), von Rad, a prominent Old Testament scholar, supported the view that the Yahwist account (Genesis 2) is older than the Priestly account (Genesis 1).

Arguments:
Theological simplicity: The J account’s focus on human origins, the garden, and divine-human interaction reflects an earlier, less theologically sophisticated stage of Israelite thought. Genesis 1’s emphasis on cosmic order and Sabbath observance aligns with Priestly concerns during the exile.

Historical setting: Von Rad dated J to the Solomonic era (10th century BCE), seeing it as a product of Israel’s early national identity, while P reflects the needs of a post-exilic community reconstructing its identity.

Narrative coherence: The J account’s informal, story-like quality contrasts with P’s systematic, almost legalistic structure, suggesting J’s greater antiquity.

Richard Elliott Friedman (b. 1946)
Contribution: In Who Wrote the Bible? (1987) and The Bible with Sources Revealed (2003), Friedman, a leading contemporary proponent of the Documentary Hypothesis, explicitly argues that the J source, including Genesis 2, predates the P source, including Genesis 1.

Arguments:
Source dating: Friedman dates J to around 848–722 BCE (during the reigns of the Judahite and Israelite monarchies) and P to around 600–500 BCE (late exilic or post-exilic period). Genesis 2’s use of YHWH and its focus on Judahite concerns (e.g., Eden as a localized paradise) suggest an earlier southern (Judahite) origin, while Genesis 1’s universalism and priestly vocabulary align with a later context.

Textual independence: Friedman notes that Genesis 2’s account stands alone as a complete creation story, with no dependence on Genesis 1, while Genesis 1 appears designed to preface and organize earlier traditions.

Contrasts in style: Genesis 2’s earthy, human-centered narrative contrasts with Genesis 1’s abstract, orderly creation, which Friedman sees as a later theological reflection.

Claus Westermann (1909–2000)
Contribution: In his three-volume commentary Genesis 1–11 (1974), Westermann, a leading Genesis scholar, argued that the Yahwist account in Genesis 2 is earlier than the Priestly account in Genesis 1.

Arguments:
Tradition history: Westermann saw Genesis 2 as rooted in older, pre-literary traditions that emphasize human creation and divine intimacy, likely from the early monarchic period. Genesis 1, with its focus on cosmic structure and Sabbath, reflects a later Priestly redaction.

Theological focus: The J account’s concern with human life and relationships (e.g., Adam and Eve) contrasts with P’s interest in divine transcendence and ritual order, which Westermann tied to the exilic or post-exilic period.

Cultural context: Genesis 2’s agrarian imagery (e.g., God planting a garden) fits an earlier, rural Israelite society, while Genesis 1’s cosmic scope responds to the theological challenges of the Babylonian Exile.

Additional Notes and Counterarguments
Consensus in Critical Scholarship: The view that Genesis 2 (J) predates Genesis 1 (P) is widely accepted among scholars who adhere to the Documentary Hypothesis or related source-critical approaches. The dating of J to the 10th–8th century BCE and P to the 6th–5th century BCE is a standard position in critical scholarship, though exact dates vary.

Alternative Views:
Some scholars, like those following the Supplementary Hypothesis (e.g., John Van Seters), argue that J might be later than traditionally thought, potentially exilic, but still often place it before P. Van Seters, in Prologue to History (1992), suggests J was a historian compiling earlier traditions but still predates P’s final redaction.

Conservative scholars (e.g., Kenneth Kitchen or R.K. Harrison) reject the Documentary Hypothesis and argue for a unified composition of Genesis, often attributing it to Moses (13th century BCE) or an early single author. They would not see Genesis 2 as predating Genesis 1 but as part of a cohesive narrative.

Minimalist scholars (e.g., Thomas L. Thompson) question the historical reliability of both accounts and may argue that both Genesis 1 and 2 are late compositions (post-exilic), though they often still see J traditions as older than P.

Challenges to Dating: Precise dating is difficult due to the oral origins of many traditions, the lack of direct archaeological evidence, and debates over linguistic markers (e.g., whether YHWH usage definitively indicates an earlier text).

Summary
Scholars like Julius Wellhausen, Hermann Gunkel, Gerhard von Rad, Richard Elliott Friedman, and Claus Westermann explicitly argue that Genesis 2 predates Genesis 1, primarily based on its attribution to the Yahwist source (J), which they date to the 10th–8th century BCE, compared to the Priestly source (P) of Genesis 1, dated to the 6th–5th century BCE. Their arguments rest on linguistic, stylistic, theological, and historical grounds, with Genesis 2’s anthropomorphic, narrative style seen as reflecting earlier traditions than Genesis 1’s abstract, cosmological framework.

Blessings,

Your challenge, given your understanding of the Hebrew text is two fold: First, my reading of the Hebrew says that they felt shame ('erummim) afterwards, not estrangement. In addition, by covering the genitals and not, say, their feet, head, chest, etc., suggests that the ‘shame’ was associated in some why with their naughty bits. I don’t see your exegesis supported in the text and would appreciate your reasoning.

Your second challenge is for you to explain why they were not immediately executed as Yahweh promised ("on the day you eat of it you will surely die.). I leave it to you to explain why they were not executed there and then!. Indeed, after eating the fruit the couple lived for many centuries post expulsion ('Adam died a natural death 930 years of age).

Blessings,

1 Like

Theology has nothing to do with it. If you use theology to decide how the Bible works, you’re doing it wrong.
You’ve been shown before the textual reasons that the second Creation account is not a continuation of the first, but you don’t care enough about the scriptures to pay attention to that. Your rely instead on human tradition.

That’s a human tradition – the text does not claim to have physical evidence nor does it assert that it is eyewitness testimony.
I’ve asked before, but here goes again: if Genesis 1 is eyewitness testimony, how is it that the Egyptians got it mostly right, given that the first Genesis Creation account uses the Egyptian creation story edited to straighten out the theology.
And while I’m asking questions, what theology comes from the fact that the sun and moon aren’t even named in the first Creation account?

1 Like