There is no question about whether there is a judgment and punishment for sin. The issue is only whether the punishment comes to an end.
If Jesus says to come, and the person doesn’t, I would not be the one to say it does not affect their final destiny.
And if you do not believe in your gut that you are a sinner, perpetually sinning, an everlasting offense to a holy God, then we are coming at this from two radically different perspectives.
- Do ya think?! But as I’ve said before, if the Qur’an is wrong about that, Muhammad was wrong about that, and so was Allah, who was the Author of that claim. And yet there are folks who still insist that Yahweh and Allah, are the same God and that the Law of Non-contradiction does not apply or is false. Go figure.
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So long as what we have in mind is “something or other as the self-existent origin of all else” then what is so odd about that? The theology you choose may vary but isn’t as though only one of you have in mind the real McCoy and everyone else is holding up a stone idol. It seems to me you are cordoning off much of what is part of the common human experience and seeking brand it as Christian only.
There is one God or there isn’t. There is truth about him or there isn’t. The truth doesn’t care what we think or don’t think. The truth, however, is knowable, and it is not just opinion.
- And it seems to me that you’re out of your league.
- I realize that there’s the remotest chance that you actually believe that I made up the claim that Jesus was crucified, that he died on the cross as a result of that crucifixion, that he was entombed on the same day, and that he was raised from the dead in that tomb, and was seen by living witnesses outside of the tomb during his remaining days on earth. But I didn’t make that story up; it’s about 2,000 years old. I just believe that’s what happened. You got an argument with that story? Take it up with someone else.
- I also realize that there’s the remotest chance that you actually believe that I made up the claim that Allah Himself gave Muhammad the words now written in the Qur’an via the Archangel Gabriel. But I didn’t make that story up either. Nor do I believe it. But I bet you’d have to search pretty hard to find a devout, knowledgeable Muslim who doesn’t believe the story, although you and I both know you’re probably not even going to try to find one.
- In view of those two stories which–try as hard as I can–I can’t see how to reconcile them because they contradict each other, I am dumbfounded by your suggestion that epistemically humble lil’ ol’ me, am guilty of cordoning off human experience and “branding it as Christian only.” I’ve done no such thing, and strongly suspect that you don’t know what you’re talking about.
- 'Nuff said? I think so.
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As I was headed in this direction, I found a single verse which cooled my enthusiasm. I was ever so close to picking up the mantle of John Stott, but Grudem drew my attention to the importance of Revelation 14:11.
For some individuals, in the grip of their rebellion against Jesus, just disappearing in the end will be a welcome outcome.
Conversely, there is a verse, a single word from Jesus, that universalists will never be able to harmonize.
OK, you have my curiosity up: what’s the word that counts against universalism?
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What’s your best guess? 
This reminds me of an interesting and unusual exchange I had with a pastor online. He was of the belief that not all Christians are called to be evangelists. I told him that I once held this view, until I heard a sermon on a verse that changed my mind about this. He was obviously concerned and wanted to know what verse it was. In God’s providence, I couldn’t remember the verse. Talk about needing to be careful with what you teach.
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Amen! The title of my (unpublished) ms is Can We KNOW God Is Real? And the subtitle is: The Possibility and Nature of Certainty About God.
There is no question about the human condition. Acc. to the scriptures we are by nature sinful creatures. The question is what God has done and yet intends to do about it. I Cor. 12:3 tells us that no one can confess that Jesus is Lord unless enabled by the Holy Spirit to do so. And Rev 5:13 tells us that in the end every creature in heaven and earth will do exactly that. It logically follows that every creature will be given the Spirit.
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Craig Keener is a favorite commentator of mine. His audio lectures on Revelation, published by Zondervan Academic, are one of the most beautiful things I have ever heard.
Except when that logic doesn’t follow, and Jesus is unequivocal that one sin will not be forgiven.
I’m not an expert, and don’t know the book off the top of my head, but in looking at the passage now, Revelation 5:13 isn’t even a foreshadow of the end.
Keener doesn’t mention any interpretative difficulty, and briefly remarks, “to be sure, animals and inanimate creation are less intelligent than people made in God’s image; yet we have so debased our wisdom that sometimes animals are smarter than we are.”
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I’m guessing he was referring to his Revelation 14:11 reference. …Which, if so, I’m thinking there might be other singular verses more difficult than that one for universalists. But leaving that aside for now …
I really appreciated Scott McKnight’s appraisal (Interview over at Holypost.com; skip to 59:30 mark to get straight to that part) of how Revelation has (and has not) been treated by the church of recent generations.
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I’ve lost track of this discussion days or weeks ago, so sorry to be shifting farther off topic, but Merv, thank you for this discussion on the Holy Post. Being apathetic to dispensationalism, yet coming from a dispensationalist background, I have always found the work with Revelation mind-boggling and unlikely. The end-times obsessions have always struck me as distracting and dangerous, encouraging people to make some of the worst decisions based on a unsupportable, incredibly subjective, allegorized reading. I ran across a book a few years ago that looked at a first century application of the book and through worship as a political act. Read through this lens, the book is (fairly) simple, straight-forward and quite clear. No tortured time-tables and mind-boggling descriptions of who is where when, and doing what, and and and……
I should probably finish that book. Sigh.
Thanks for pointing to the podcast. That was really helpful.
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Sounds like Keener’s approach. As a post-mil leaning optimist, I loved how Keener brought out the apocalyptic imagery from Second Temple Judaism. What a richly rewarding cultural experience! Also, I loved how you never really can figure what Keener’s end times view is. At least I don’t remember it being made obvious.
As a side note, Peter and Paul have the same time period in view when they talk about the Last Days. Whereas Peter is optimistic, Paul is neither naive.
The word “aion” in Greek definitely does not mean endless except when used of God. But Augustine insisted it should be translated as “forever”.
In Rev 14:11 it should be rendered “constantly” or something close to that.
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This is the book I have:
Picked it up off a sale rack at Baker in Grand Rapids, because it looked interesting. One of the church library volunteers schooled me (the then librarian) on all the things that were wrongwith the book. I learned then that there are folks besides the pastor, who know the time tables backwards and forwards. Whew. I brought the book home. I’ll read it.
Are you suggesting that at some point God gives his Spirit to everyone so that all believe and confess the truth, but because that is not the last thing to happen many may then lose God’s Spirit and lose faith in God and this be lost forever? Really?
The account of what Jesus said differs a bit from one gospel to another. Matthew apparently heard more than the other two, so his account is longer. The important point comes in v 32 where Jesus repeats this warning and gives a more specific explanation of it. This is because the Jewish people of this time saw all human history as divided into ages. There was an age of the Patriarchs, an age of the prophets, an so on. What Jesus adds, according to Matthew, is that some sins are bad enough not to be forgiven in this (present) age, or the next one. That does not preclude forgiveness in another age yet to come.
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