Rejecting evolutionism and a proper apologetics

It is one thing if the term is used by detractors, which means it is nothing more than a tool of rhetoric and quite another if there are actual people advocating a position which they call evolutionism.

So… can you name someone who does – who advocates a position they call evolutionism?

PS. The above might explain why the so called belief in a “flying spaghetti monster” popped into my mind several times in this discussion – a mythical religion invented by atheists for the purpose of rhetoric only, as is perhaps the case with this mythical ideology of “evolutionism.” Of course, I will change this conclusion if you do come up with someone who advocates evolutionism.

“I’d be more gracious if…”

I’ll just stick with good solid research and let the evidence speak for itself, trying to be as polite and gracious as possible to all people here. Thanks and good night.

Absolutely! Except I go to a YEC church and they have blocks there too; so maybe I will learn from you in discussion. I try to use the smallest words anyway.

My dad, a surgeon, used to say that it’s one thing to learn a science, and an even greater task to communicate it to others. I know you have way more education than I do in the social sciences. I may have more biology than you; but see how difficult it is to communicate between people who have an education in this way? Heaven help us first to understand, and then to communicate.

Blessings on your research.

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What an idea!

From reading an article linked by Gregory from Logos: A Journal of Eastern Christian Studies
Vol. 50 (2009) Nos. 1–2, pp. 89–153 “Essence and Energy: An Exploration in
Orthodox Theology and Physics” I think the word “activity” is a better understanding of this use of the word “energy” than “causes.” In this case the phrase from Costache in question becomes…

creationism emphasizes supernatural activity to the detriment of the natural one, whereas evolutionism emphasizes natural activity and ignores the supernatural one.

which makes sense…

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Yes, I see the usefulness of this concept. Thanks @Gregory

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I find the Greek words works well with English dynamics, (sustaining) energy and phenomena.

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And how is creationism or YEC regarded by evolutionists? Even with the old-age Christian apologists, the young earth believers are considered to be uneducated yokels who thumb their noses at modern things like science and manners and hygiene.

At first, from what I was reading of the link Gregory provided, it sounded like this essence-energy distinction was like Aristotle’s hylomorphism of form (that by which a thing is what it is) and matter (that by which a thing exists). But as I read more, like from Wikipedia, it sound more like the distinction between cause and effect. It seems to derive from the same terminology as the Christian compromise on Christology and Trinity, which says that the Father and Son are of one essence (homo-ousia) but different “energies” or activities or manifestations of God. Now that sounds like it is teetering on modalism, and I thought the point was they are different persons but one God. Though perhaps with a little caution modalism is avoided as long as we are clear that each person is wholly God and not a part of God, emanation, or anything like that. This tells me equating “energy” to “effect” doesn’t work either.

The discussion in the journal article attempts to mystify the physical concept of energy and claim that it is poorly defined. Nothing could be more nonsensical since there is nothing more clear and precise than the sort of mathematical definition we have in physics which is also completely measurable. There is nothing mystical about it. Nor is there any mystery in the metaphysical role it plays in science in the place of Aristotle’s concept of “matter,” as that which endures through change. This has the further advantage of transcending the distinction between thing and action – and thus being the substance of all of physicality. It is also rather easy to extend beyond the physical to suppose that physical energy is itself a particular form of some energy-like stuff which we might identify with the pure potentiality of being itself.

While I like the contribution of mysticism to understanding the limitations of logic, I don’t have much use for the woo woo ideas that effectively forbids questioning by attributing things to “mystery.” I have known too many people unsatisfied with having their questions given that sort of answer by clergy.

Then there is the sort of mysticism according to which one seeks to become one with God. In that context I suppose the following explanation from Wikipedia comes into play.

The important points being made are that while God is unknowable in His essence, He can be known (i.e. experienced) in His energies, and such experience changes neither who or what God is nor who or what the one experiencing God is. Just as a plant does not become the sun simply because it soaked up the light and warmth and grew, nor does a person who soaks up the warmth and light of God and spiritually grows ever become God—though such may be called a child of God or “a god.”

Thus the distinction is apparently to say that one can become one with God’s energies but not with God’s essence. Even if you don’t have much use for this sort of mysticism, there is still the Biblical passages where Jesus speaks of both of being one with the Father and also of us becoming one with Him. Obviously the Christian theologians want to make it clear that these are two very different kinds of being one – that Jesus is one with the Father in essence while we can only become one with Jesus in “energy.” My guess is that this is effectively pretty much what I mean when I say we can become one with Jesus in spirit, love, and purpose. Though, the thought that we become one with God in the sense of becoming part of God’s activity in the world is also a nice thought.

The journal article explains that eastern orthodox theology equates essence with nature and that God’s essence is unknowable. Thus we only know God by his “energies” (this is another usage of “energy” where “activities” understanding of it works fairly well). However, I have always been very critical of the idea that God is good and loving by nature and that He cannot be otherwise. That which is good by nature like the sun is an inanimate sort of good and not at all like the moral goodness which is a matter of choice. This effectively turns God into an object, for the essence of person is not what he is by nature but what he chooses for himself. So my approach is quite different, to say that God’s essence in His pure and unalloyed choice of love and goodness is what is fully knowable, better than we can know ourselves because of our complex mixture of good and evil – so better than anyone else we can put our trust completely in Him. But God is infinite by nature and thus unknowable in the sense that getting to know God (particularly in regards to what He has to offer us) will take an eternity for us finite beings.

Suggestive endings:
ology: religion or cult
Biology: religion or cult if the binary

ism: Ideology often used in derogative ways
Atheism
Theism
Hinduism
Judaism
racism
sexism
scepticism

sure as a linguist you could come up with more entertaining ones :slight_smile:

Dale, it seems in the USA scientology has “religion” status, unlike here in Canada.

@philosopher4hire Please reply using the reply button not by editing the OP.

Your misunderstanding the definition does not overrule the definition. Consensus changes and so does what counts as “science.” At one point balance of bodily humors controlling sickness was indeed science. At one point geocentrism was science. The practice of science allows the consensus to be modified and what is currently categorized as science is the scientific consensus.

It is not clear that you have a grasp on what evolutionary theory claims and how it works.

If there are no selective pressures on a species, populations will not evolve adaptations and ancestor populations will look very much like modern populations, as we see with some species today. This is predicted by the model.

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I think this statement needs to be heavily qualified. YECs and other science deniers know that the scientific consensus changes and lean on the fact heavily as justification for disregarding anything and everything about science that they don’t like.

A better way to put it is that science converges on a consenseus. A flat earth was a reasonable approximation for most purposes in ancient times, when people were only working with distances within a few miles of their homes, but our current knowledge of the shape of the Earth has been refined over the years to the exact shape that we now know (an oblate spheroid with slight deformations on the scale of a few metres).

So @philosopher4hire, yes there is such a thing as objective reality, and yes, objective reality is what science is concerned with. We may know that the Earth is not flat, but nobody is going to suddenly tell us that it’s shaped like an anvil some day.

It’s the point that Isaac Asimov made in his essay “The Relativity of Wrong”: https://chem.tufts.edu/answersinscience/relativityofwrong.htm

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There’s going to be a new BioLogos Common Question out soon that delves into the idea with more nuance than I just expressed. But I still think it is true that what we label science is a construct that is our current, best conceptualization of reality, not an absolute reality in itself. But it’s true that, considering the sheer amount of data and observations and confirmed hypotheses that have gone into building the model, we the construct has been very well-refined and is only going to be refined further, not overthrown completely.

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Hi James,

Earlier I asked, and now repeat in case you missed it above:

As you’ve put together a considerable amount of valuable material for YECists, trying to persuade them out of YECism, I wonder if you are also aware of the voluminous uses of “evolutionism” by non-YECists? Could you possibly say a bit about that?

A quick search on GoogleScholar pulls up almost 40,000 hits for “evolutionism”. Are you familiar with the work on “evolutionism” by any of the writers, say on the first 3 pages of hits? None of them are “creationist” tracts in peer-reviewed journals. Google Scholar

For example, Blankenburg’s 1984 work (which perhaps sounds the most “creationist”, and seems to be the most anti-evolutionist of the first 3 pages), says, “As is so often the case in legal theory, ‘evolutionism’ is used as a mask for the legitimation of presumably ‘progressive’ legal ideas.”

Thanks for drawing that to my attention. I have no reason to question what you’re saying here.

I haven’t looked into how non-YECs use the word “evolutionism,” but I would imagine that it is very, very different from how YECs use the word. Do you know if mainstream writers have a precise definition of the word “evolutionism,” and if so, do they use it consistently?

It seems to me that evolutionism is an ideology but only as a straw man. Scientism as the over valuation and misapplication of science is the ideology with an active following, though you’ll find very few adherents who recognize they hold it. Occasionally I find some people online who hold the idea that the human race is evolving or will evolve toward something better. But this is more about scientism than anything specifically to do with the theory of evolution.

Ah yes… the term “evolutionism” is apparently of some significance in social science referring to a class of social theories that were influential in the late 19th century. That context certainly makes of big difference. I think most of us were presuming that you were speaking of a more general ideology of the current era.

It also seems to refer to a general philosophical approach to things from before the theory of Charles Darwin came on the scene – when is was more of a general naturalistic philosophy – an alternative explanation for how things came to be as they are in competition with theistic viewpoint. Most of us are not so used to looking at things from such an historical perspective like that.

Since the only scientists who work with evolution are those trying desperately to prove it, as opposed to actual science, which works to falsify theories because they can’t be proven, that assertion is correct.

No, it’s an ideology, and a religion. The only way to pare it down is to claim the theory is only about change over time, which is too simplistic and plain wrong. Evolution includes every failed naturalist and humanist theory from the big bang to cosmic evolution to how the planets formed to spontaneous life to the great awakening of species to greater and greater complexity and finally, man. All sans God, which is the entire point of them.

Perhaps you and some others see it as a religion because you project your own religious ideas into science and you
have made science a religious subject. In that case, I can see how it indeed is evolutionism and a religion from your standpoint. However, it is not a religion for those who study it any more than auto mechanics is a religion for the guys in the shop at the Ford dealership. Biologists are interested in how stuff works, and in some cases like Covid disease and medical research, how to fix it when it acts up.

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