Rejecting evolutionism and a proper apologetics

Religion consist of the conclusions we draw from our own personal experiences in the context of all we have learned about people and the world. It is frankly unavoidable because science is based on objective observation where what you want and believe does not matter, and you cannot live your life as an objective observer. Life requires subjective participation where what you want and believe is important.

Science consists of written procedures which give the same result no matter what you believe. All the procedures for finding fossils, dating them, comparing the genetics of different organisms, as well as the observation of changes in living organism, all give the same result that all living things have a common ancestor.

This is why people of all different religions can do the work of science and agree on the results. It is why the majority of Christians in the world accept the conclusions of science that all living organisms have a common ancestor. It is also the only reason why some scientists such as myself even find Christianity credible. Without evolution, the philosophical problem of evil and atrocities in the Bible defeat the claims of Christianity utterly and reduce it to cultic ravings. Only the harsh realities of the requirements of life itself answers these challenges sufficiently to make this religion worth believing in. To be sure it means leaving behind the Walt Disney interpretation of the Bible where things began with golems, magical fruit and talking animals. But some of us are willing to take the Bible seriously enough to do that.

Recent events make it crystal clear that some people care nothing about evidence, human decency, or human civilization. All they care about is power and clinging to their delusions even if they have to murder innocent people for disagreeing with them. The world can no longer afford such willful ignorance, insanity, and barbarism. They are giving Christianity a bad name just like those who murder in the name of Islam.

That is simply absurd.

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How can it be absurd when creationists demonstrate for all to see that they can and will do this themselves. No I will not say it is absurd. It is a lie and it this tactic of accusing people of something as a cover for doing so yourself has been a frequent practice in the world which is only getting worse.

The irrefutable evidence which shows this to be a lie and reveals who is really doing this is one simple fact: People of all different cultures and religions are working together in science while this simply isn’t the case for those telling this lie.

Yeah but I still think it is absurd to imagine that people working in biological science who actually make use of evolution theory can only be looking to ‘prove it’. What is this obsession with proving everything? I guess it is because Patrick is so eager to ‘prove’ the Bible that he assumes everyone else is as insecure about what they believe as he is.

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“Thanks for drawing that to my attention. I have no reason to question what you’re saying here.” - James McKay

You’re welcome. Thanks for the trust. I’ve been mistaken for a “creationist” far too many times, yet people are always surprised to hear there’s another way to discuss & explore the topic. It was outside of N. America that I discovered the limits of the N. American conversation on this topic, and that people in other parts of the world don’t have to face the YECism here (I’m in Canada).

Discussing “evolutionism” with YECists is usually just too boring and repetitive, as they often flat-out refuse to recognize their own “New Age Christian” ideology, which is born out of their local “pastor(s)” preaching biblical literalism & Sola Scriptura at them regularly, which serves to make them authorities over Scriptural interpretation in their own minds & hearts.

“I would imagine that it is very, very different from how YECs use the word.”

There’s some similarities and some differences. Some YECists have used expressions of “evolutionism” from “mainstream science” (though it denotes ideology, not science) & criticize that. When they do it in a proper, rigorous and balanced way, then I don’t have a problem with their anti-evolutionism, just as I’m thankful that BioLogos rejects “evolutionism”. It’s when YECists do exactly the same thing that IDists do, blaming Darwin or “evolutionary biology” for far too many “sins” of contemporary society, that they demonstrate their ideological fanaticism and myopia in their eisegesis of Scripture, and problems quickly arise among fellow “believers”.

For example, take Sanderson, Carneiro & Claessen, top of the “evolutionism” list in GoogleScholar, they all use the term “evolutionism” to simply mean “accepting the theory of biological evolution”, like some dictionaries say. Thus, they leave out the ideological meaning of “evolutionism” entirely, while perpetuating that ideology itself in their over-extension of the term “evolution” in fields like politics, economics, sociology, & (cultural) anthropology.

In the N. American case, a fault line exposing ideological evolutionism runs through “anthropology” between the “biological anthropologists” and the “cultural anthropologists”, as you can see in the reference to Leslie White in GoogleScholar. The Lowie-White exchange in 1947 American Anthropologist is excellent to frame the conversation. To be clear, I’m on Lowie’s side here. Notice how one used “evolution”, while the other responded with “evolutionism”. Why? What’s the difference?

“Do you know if mainstream writers have a precise definition of the word “evolutionism,” and if so, do they use it consistently?”

I would not say there is a single “precise definition” of “evolutionism”, but rather several (Edit: & usually not “precise”). Often it’s possible to distinguish atheistic evolutionism (AEism) from theistic evolutionism (TEism), but not always on the surface. There’s also a strand of “Catholic evolutionism”. A former president of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences even endorsed “evolutionism”.

One can quite easily see how the Catholic Church gets this wrong here, in confusing ideology with natural science: “the encyclical Humani Generis treated the doctrine of “evolutionism” as a serious hypothesis”. - John Paul II

Yet there is no mention of “evolutionism” in Humani Generis, only “evolution”. Pope Piux XII had written in Humani Generis:

“fictitious tenets of evolution which repudiate all that is absolute, firm and immutable, have paved the way for the new erroneous philosophy which, rivaling idealism, immanentism and pragmatism, has assumed the name of existentialism, since it concerns itself only with existence of individual things and neglects all consideration of their immutable essences.”

Thus Piux XII was attacking ideological existentialism, rather than addressing “evolutionism.”

He continued:

“the Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter - for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God.”

Fr. Doru Costache splits this difference quite clearly, as quoted above:

“Christians do not believe in creationism; they believe in creation. Scientists do not believe in evolutionism; they believe in evolution.”

To me, this seems quite helpful already, to help move beyond “creationism” and “evolutionism”. Does it come across that way to you also, or resonate differently?

Please look again at the list of papers on GoogleScholar. It’s not just a 19th century conversation.

Yes, I am speaking of “a more general ideology of the current era”. If I’m the only one who is searching for it, though, then no one else here is going to find it, right? Yet evidence for the promotion of “evolutionism” by ideological evolutionism TODAY is fairly easy to discover for anyone who would conduct a search.

And yet you have failed to meet my challenge of naming someone who promotes what they call evolutionism… without doing so it remains only a strawman rhetoric and a fairy tale like the atheist talk of a flying spaghetti monster religion.

Mary Midgley is an exception, and there are others too. Evolution as a Religion: Strange Hopes and Stranger Fears - Mary Midgley - Google Books

Here’s the simple distinction I suggest, in line with Fr. Costache above:
Evolution = natural scientific theory
Evolutionism = ideology
Creationism = ideology

This view, however, is still gaining adherents, rather than having been available for too long when dealing with “modern creationism.”

Under no circumstance do I label “evolutionary biology” as primarily or only “ideological”, unless the evolutionary biologist proposing it, elevates it beyond natural science, which unfortunately happens quite often, as Alexander & Numbers showed here: Biology and Ideology from Descartes to Dawkins, Alexander, Numbers

NB:

"It is interesting to note that, for [Mariano] Artigas, the “frontiers of evolutionism” are in fact issues related to philosophy of science, such as whether science will ever be able to explain divine action in the world, the creation of the universe ex nihilo or the human soul, as well as issues such as finality and chance. It is clear that these topics have very little to do with standard evolutionary theory, so the original title of the book is a bit of a misnomer as he himself acknowledges in the addendum to the fifth edition of 1991. In the same vein, it is interesting to note the use of the word “Evolutionism” in all his works in Spanish. He will only use the less ideology-charged word “Evolution” in the English edition of The Mind of the Universe (2001, 115).

I agree that which language is used makes a big difference here, as one can see with the posts of Antoine Suarez that seemingly endorse ideological evolutionism, beyond merely evolutionary biology.

C’mon, please read charitably, or at least just read. Sanderson, Carneiro, & Claessen are THREE NAMES. You’ll find more on GoogleScholar if you just look.

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Of course it’s absurd. Patrick clearly knows nothing about what real biologists do or think. Why some people feel it’s okay to just make up stuff about people they don’t know – beats me.

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Yep missed that… and no I am not reading all of every reply you make to everyone the very second you make those replies. I apologize for my lack of obsession to hang on every word you write.

NEVERTHELESS… I will acknowledge you have given sufficient reason for my comparison with the flying spaghetti monster as a fairy tale or as pure strawman rhetoric to be withdrawn. You have shown it is indeed more than that, at least. Atheists have pretended to believe in a flying spaghetti monster but it is pretense for mockery and rhetoric only – not quite the same thing.

Stephen K. Sanderson - specialist in sociological theory and comparative and historical sociology
Robert Carneiro - student and is an active disciple of Leslie White, who sixty years ago first presented a materialist‐based evolution theory of cultural change
Henri Claessen - cultural anthropologist specialized in the early state and Professor Emeritus in Social Anthropology

So… these are all cultural evolutionists in the sociological sciences. I wouldn’t call that an ideology any more than I would call the use of chemistry to explain emotions an ideology. And… I don’t think most people would call a trend in some particular science an ideology either. I have made it clear that I am well aware of the over-use of evolution as a TOE. But for those of us not in the social sciences nor very interested in the social sciences, the talk of an ideology of evolutionism still seems a bit overblown – not helped of course by the usage by creationists, which it is better not to give any legitimacy using such a poor excuse.

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So an evolutionist believes in evolution, a evolutionary creationist believes in evolutionary creation, and a creationist believes in creation, or when used in a derogatory manner, “creationism?”

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While I agree with the broad thrust of your comment, I have to smile as I recall the effort undertaken at BioLogos to construct an ‘evolutionary’ narrative for Adam and Eve - is this an effort to project your ideas on religious doctrine?. If the shoe fits … :grin:

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Thank you. Fr. Costache’s clarification is quite helpful, indeed.

“Robert Carneiro - student and is an active disciple of Leslie White”

Carneiro died in 2020. White over 40 years ago. Sanderson and Claessen are still alive, so is Blute, etc.

“I don’t think most people would call a trend in some particular science an ideology either.”

Ideology differs from science. Ideology is not only found “in science”. Do you “get” this, Mitchell?

“I have made it clear that I am well aware of the over-use of evolution as a TOE.”

You’ve hinted of your awareness, but I haven’t actually seen any evidence that you could come up with a list of examples of “over-use of evolution as a TOE”. Could you provide us with such a list here? Maybe that would help the conversation if you could show us your “awareness” by quoting some examples of what you mean. As a physicist, this is totally outside your field, of course, but as an amateur internet sleuth, your are welcome to show what you’ve found.

“the talk of an ideology of evolutionism still seems a bit overblown”

For you, perhaps. It’s not a topic that most physicists need to encounter.

Obviously, since @philosopher4hire noted in the OP that “evolutionism is unscientific” and “evolutionism is a fake”, it matters to him/her. Your views are noted, but in this case, unconvincing as you’re missing a LOT.

Since Gregory has a bee in his bonnet concerning the use of evolution to explain cultural change, perhaps I should give my own amateurish analysis of the idea.

There are a number of problems with this idea.

  1. Variation in culture is not a product of random changes. It is a product of human creativity and initiative. So while I might attribute genetic variation to a creative characteristic of the life process (not completely devoid of intention), it doesn’t quite justify ignoring this fundamental difference because the intentionality is vastly greater with human agency.
  2. The survival and propagation of changes in society is not merely a matter of survival (such changes are not living organisms whose life processes can be interrupted) except as a metaphor only. It is a matter of enthusiasm and popularity – which is poorly understood with many contributing factors. Something which is unpopular at one time can become very popular at a later time.
  3. Dawkin’s idea of memes which metaphorically compares ideas to genes, certainly doesn’t make this work any better. They do not replicate themselves, people decide for themselves whether to adopt them and share them with others.

So I would agree this idea of cultural evolution more of a metaphor than a scientific theory, and so there is good reason to challenge and criticize this particular paradigm.

It all comes down again to definitions. If science is a search for naturalistic explanations (the toxic definition that Darwin introduced), then of course, theology is not a science. But if it is a search for truth wherever it is found, then theology is a science.

But why such a vigorous objection to using evolutionary metaphors in other disciplines? Why does that imply a pernicious ideology? We use engineering metaphors and chemistry metaphors in other disciplines and no one fusses about engineerism or chemistryism as dangerously encroaching worldviews.

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You are correct in the sense this is something I encountered too long ago to remember the details. the evidence is that I suggested a definition of “evolutionism” based on such an over-extension.

But yeah… I can research a topic tenaciously to find such a list… LOL

https://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/on-the-human/2009/09/does-evolution-explain-our-behaviour/

But my educational background is not limited to physics only. I also have masters of Divinity – no social science in that to be sure but it does include areas to which evolution has also been over extended.

No doubt we all look for ways to integrate our beliefs. While It is interesting to speculate whether echos of evolution may remain in the text of early Genesis, I really don’t think it is and looking for it indeed is projecting and wishful thinking. Sort of like when readers see things in books that the author really does not intend. I also think the genealogical Adam and Eve is that kind of construct. However, I am sure there are other areas of theology I do that same thing as well. And just maybe, that is OK, as the stories and text of the Bible provides space for our filling it in with our perspective as the Spirit leads.

Nope. Chemistry isn’t a religion. Physics isn’t a religion. Most sciences follow the rules and nobody debates whether a base plus an acid produces a salt. Metallurgists know what to expect when adding tungsten to steel, because it happens every time. If it doesn’t, then something in the process was wrong.

How is evolution different than these (actual) sciences? Because you’re trying to take random process and make it a repeatable and additive source for genetic change. Chaos can’t work that way, and real science, like thermodynamics proves it. Mutations can be shown to happen once, but it is always harmful and there is no way to build mutation on mutation to create new information.

Look how devoted people are to a supposed theory. Real science changes, and real scientists are always looking for a theory that works better, not trying to protect the last one. Note why evolution is so important to it’s devotees. It has nothing to do with the science or lack thereof involved.

2. Evolution by natural selection: Charles Darwin, 1859
Darwin showed that the intricate complexity of life and the intricate relationships among life-forms could emerge and survive from natural processes, with no need for a designer or an ark. He opened the human mind to pursuing natural science unimpaired by supernatural prejudices.
https://www.sciencenews.org/blog/context/top-10-revolutionary-scientific-theories