Reconciling RTB and BioLogos Biblical Creation Models

If your goal is to reconcile RTB (broadly speaking) with BioLogos, there is quite a bit about a Genealogical Adam that helps. It is not the RTB model per se, but allows for most (all?) the theology they say is important, and appears to fit the evidence better too.

I am doing to events with Hugh Ross end of January. One of these events, we will be taking a look at a Genealogical Adam together. Perhaps that could be the beginning of the rapprochement for which you are aiming. If you hope to learn more about this, read here:

A nice feature of this model is that it is entirely consistent with mainstream science. It is a minority theological position within BioLogos as a view of Adam, but is is affirmed as legitimate scientifically supported science nonetheless. Many of us think this could be the best way forward for rapprochement with RTB.

For example, it is consistent with all features of your proposal.

Moreover, Adam and Eve 13,000 years ago would be ancestors of us all, and could even be de novo created, without parents. You do not even need to dispute @glipsnort on population genetics to affirm this (trust me, you do not want to dispute him on population genetics).

It’s been a while, and perhaps @glipsnort will know for sure, but I think the data is in the original gorilla and orangutan genome papers. I’m giving those predicted/observed values from memory, so they might be a bit off.

As for why we expect more ILS with gorilla than with orangs, it’s because we share a common ancestral population longer with gorillas.

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First of all, @Mark_Moore, I’m in total agreement with @gbrooks9 (and other posters) that your post of 116/132 should have appeared at the beginning of this thread. So much of the discussion about gene counting in the gorilla/chimp/human lines and the improvements that cladistics make over Linnaean classification–these go over my head and I wasn’t sure of what differences actually separated RTB from BioLogos theistic evolutionary models. IMHO I have, very late in life, come to a worldview that does reconcile the two models, but it requires a significant reinterpretation of Genesis, in regards to both Original Sin (the Fall) and the Flood and the special importance of Noah’s lineage.

Those who have followed my posts on the forum, realize that I put a critical value on the anthropological evidence for the apparent Great Leap Forward taken by Homo sapiens some 40 - 50 K yrs ago, and IF this proves to be an illusion, then the unique portion of my world view disappears. Studies relating to the Theory of Mind (ToM) are still in their infancy, but as they progress, I believe it will become more apparent how humankind fits into Ongoing Creation.
Al Leo

Late to the party here, but if you were an educator, you do know that this is an unfair / inaccurate parody of evolution, right? Just checking.

To be clear, the last common ancestor of butterfly and blue whale was a tiny water-dwelling animal 550+ million years ago, when protostomes and deuterostomes split. It would be quite a while then before insects and amphibians would make their way on land, and much longer still till neopterans took to flight and cetaceans headed back to the sea.

If you’re going to invent theories like butterflies becoming blue whales, you might as well say that evolutionists believe in unicorns. It would be just as true, and a lot more fun!

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[quote=“Bill_II, post:89, topic:37468”]

Did @Mark_Moore fully appreciate this?

2 ^ 24 = 16,777,216.

So if a family split in 2 just 24 times, it would surpass your 10,000,000 families number.
543 million years / 24 splits = a split every 22,625,000 years.

We’re looking at an exponential function, not a linear function.

Does this make sense?

A post was split to a new topic: How to account for the difference in gene numbers between chimps and humans?

Oh I hope so. I did not want to be drawn into defending the same position as Ken Ham, just on the basis of not liking those odds!. For my model it does not matter when or where the Divine hand gave the earth its assist.

In a theoretical world where we started with only one family and they continued splitting with no extinctions, yes. But think about what we think happened in this world. I am starting at the Cambrian Explosion. That wasn’t just one family. There were probably more animal PHYLA that went extinct since then than exist today! Throughout history there were routine extinction of species and families. Then we have had several mass extinction events. The first wiped out 90% of all land animals.

Yes I agree that 10 million families is probably on the low end. But if you laid it out on a timeline it would look more like a linear than an exponential function overall on the broad scale. That it happens exponentially when there is not a mass extinction event probably helps my case. If they have been happening at an exponentially greater rate since 65 mya after being on an overall linear rate for the past 543 million years then new families should really be popping out all over!

I don’t want to be unfair and so far as I know there is nothing unfair about the phrase “get butterfly to blue whale” being used as an accurate description of what those who suppose evolution is solely responsible for every form of life on earth believe that evolution has the power to do.

Now you point out that what evolutionists actually think happened was that both blue whales and butterflies had a common ancestor, some of whose descendants became butterflies and others of which became blue whales. That is true, but I was talking about what they say could in principle happen, not just what they say did happen. Given that the evolutionary hypothesis is that occurred by a series of tiny steps which tend to occur over time naturally I see no reason why they would not also believe that given the right pressures the organisms would also be able to evolve back to where they looked like they did at the common ancestor, and from there take the opposite direction they took the first time.

Now that might not describe you, or a lot of others on this board. You may be a Theistic evolutionist who thinks that though things unfolded this way, it was because they were meant to and further that the limits of evolution’s power is to do what God has given it to do- therefore evolution is unidirectional. If that is you, I want you to know that I was not claiming that this was your belief. You would be a special case of the type to which my statement does not apply.

And maybe on this board that special case is the majority and therefore I should not use such language here, even if it accurately describes the position that the typical evolutionist has. If I find that is the case, I will cease using such language here, but it is still not inaccurate, or a parody, of the power that evolutionists as a whole ascribe to the process.

At this point Albert, even I think I should have started with the summary!

I am glad to meet someone who feels as you do. I also have have “non-standard” (but to me still within orthodoxy) views on those three issues. For example, I do not believe the bible teaches that we inherited our sin nature via descent from Adam… Early Genesis: The Revealed Cosmology: Thesis #4: Inheritance from Adam is not Where We Got our Sin Nature

I admit I was not aware that this was predicted in advance. I thought that the data was found first and then a mathematical model was constructed to explain the data. I am curious as to how a mathematical model can get it so close based on what must be statistical analysis which is most useful with neutral changes when many of the areas where humans are more “gorilla-like” are regions of function- such as hearing and immune system. I also would like to see the study.

How do you know it wasn’t just one family, though? If someone got to examine all those Cambrian species at the time, they certainly wouldn’t suggest phylum-level divisions for the most part. As I recall they were mostly a lot of variants on worms, to put it crudely.

I’ll agree in advance that a single family is too narrow a category. But we’re only calling them phylum-level from the benefit of a half-billion years of hindsight. Or if you want to come at definitions another way, phylum-level only seems massive because of all the other levels that subsequently evolved.

I am very very interested in your ideas and this event. I plan to contact you privately about it but it does look like our models are in overall agreement about what happened. I don’t think it is theologically necessary for Adam to be mixed into everyone’s genealogy but I also think that there is probably no group of humans today of any great size that does not at least have a trace of his genetic legacy. Not that this matter, what matters is how we are related to the One who Paul calls the Second Man, Christ.

I will let you be the judge…

Why start there? By that time, there was already significant diversity that had built up over many millions of years.

Great. You’re right — there have been five mass extinctions, and they’re non-trivial. So let’s say that every time that happens, you lose 99% (an order of magnitude worse than you said) of all species. That means instead of 24 generations, you need 57. So a new family every 9.5M years instead of every 22.6M years. Still a looong ways from 1500 years…

Granted, there are many minor extinctions not counted in here. But I maintain that it’s nowhere close to a linear function.

I’m confused. Are you reconciling RTB with atheistic views?

…because I thought you were reconciling RTB with BioLogos.

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Thanks, Mark, for the link. I now know more exactly how and where our two lines of thought diverge. You have strived hard to maintain an orthodox theology, which, I must admit, is the best starting point for instructing newcomers to the Christian Faith, including one’s children. But in my case, when I started high school and was attracted to a career in science, I began to form a world view that threatened to make my orthodox faith irrelevant, just as it had done for so many of my colleagues later in life. When I learned more about evolution, and how it provided the best explanation (while still not perfect) of how humankind appeared on this planet, I realized that the belief that a perfect God made the first human perfect (or at least sinless) could NOT be the full truth. We learn from evolution that humans sprang from a line of primates that like all sentient life, behaved amorally–i.e. instinctively and largely selfishly. Being unaware of God or of His Purpose, animals (including our primate ancestors) behaved in ways we now consider evil. But, without a conscience, they could not Sin.

When God gave Homo sapiens a conscience (rather suddenly if the GLF is factual), there was the opportunity for Homo sapiens to rise above instinct and act morally, thus striving to become His Image Bearers. But doing so often proved to be difficult, and whenever we refuse His Gift, we sin.

I would like to reprint some passages from your Thesis 4 to illustrate how close some of your views (portions italicized) are to mine:
……………
I say the same thing Paul says about the relationship between sin, death, and the law. Before he knew the law, he had life and sin was dead. But once the commandment came, sin came to life (it entered his world) and he died. What I am suggesting is that the condition Paul describes is just what it was like for those men who lived before Adam. They were alive apart from the law. They were acting out of God’s will, but there was no law and hence no accountability.

Once Adam, as the stand-in for all mankind, broke the law [refused God’s Gift] then sin came to life and Adam died (as the Bible defines death). If any of them had been perfect, they would not have died, but none of them were. All of them needed the protection afforded by Adam as the stand-in for all of mankind, even as we need the protection afforded by Christ as our stand-in. _

Sin sprang to life. What was once dead had existence in the world. That is what is meant by sin “entering” the world. There is no need for theologians to concoct another method of entry of sin into the world besides the one Paul describes two chapters later. Sin was dead [i.e. nonexistent] before Adam’s failure [refusing the Gift]. After that, it was alive and Adam was dead. Sin entered, became alive, in the world.

The deeds were old [evil arising from animal instinct] The guilt was new. The shame was new. The separation from God due to willful disobedience and a stained conscience was new.

Mankind [prior to the GLF] was already doing things God disapproved of, but they were doing so in a state of innocence, like children.
………….
You may well consider that the ‘adjustments’ I have made to your views push them over the cliff into heresy. They may only be useful as a means of keeping young folks from becoming so beguiled by the theory of evolution that they are close to throwing Baby Faith out with the bathwater.
Wishing you a blessed Christmas and a healthful happy New Year.
Al Leo

I am really not seeing this the same way as you. Compared to the Cambrian Explosion (and yes it is the logical place to start, who knows how or if the earlier stuff is even related to most of the Cambrian stuff?) we don’t have exponentially more families than now, at least comparing ocean animals to ocean animals. We have LESS diversity if you go up from the family level. Basically pick any time not immediately after a mass extinction. There are lots of families of creatures- I think the numbers are comparable to now, not orders of magnitude less than now as it would be with an exponential function.

Besides mass extinctions, there are a lot of routine extinction events. In some ages new families exceeds extinctions, since the advent of Man I would say we have seen the opposite. We notice many families have gone extinct, so far as we know they have not been replaced by new ones- we are actually going down in the number of families.

But more than that, you are subtly changing the terminology in this discussion [quote=“AMWolfe, post:147, topic:37468”]
So a new family every 9.5M years instead of every 22.6M years
[/quote]
No sir, that is not a new family every 9.5 million years, that is a new SPLIT in most or all existing families every 9.5 million years. So if their were 5 million families in this view at the start of the 9.5 million years then there are 10 million at the end of it. So five million new families in 9.5 million years. And they did not all happen at year one like a clock either. They should be spread out and that is about one new family every two years. So you are actually worse off using your model than my model. Where are they?

I am really trying to be as clear as a can. Accurately describing the world just has a lot of things to consider.

So far neither it seems.

The best place to reach me is on the Peaceful Science discourse forum:

Feel free to put a post up there with your question.

Though, if you do not need genealogical descent from Adam, there is already a lot of options available. I’d point you to Denis Alexander, Derek Fischer, and Kidner. These are often called “recent Adam representative models.”

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