Reclaiming Design | The BioLogos Forum

I agree that the phrase should be used with care, but I rarely see it used to describe the whole of evolutionary biology or of similarly broad conceptions of evolution. It would be more constructive to cite or quote a specific claim here.

With that said, I would affirm that the mainstays of evolutionary theory are indeed settled science. Common ancestry of major taxa is settled science. The efficacy of natural selection acting on genetically diverse populations to create rapid and often remarkable change is settled science. Rapid and significant genetic change in populations, which is the most basic definition of the word ‘evolution,’ is beyond settled science and has earned the status of “obvious fact.”

Unsettled, even contested, questions remain and are the focus of vigorous debate and research. One question is the extent to which natural selection accounts for evolutionary change, especially in lineages characterized by relatively small population size. Perhaps you had this very interesting question in mind when you wrote about “declaration by dozens of bio-scientists questioning natural selection,” since even the most ill-informed creationists know that NS is real.

@Eddie,

Where have you been? As I have said, it has been clearly established that the universe is rationally designed.

I agree the phrase “settled science” should be used with care, and also we should carefully distinguish between what we may consider as (general) evolutionary theory as opposed (perhaps) to evolutionary biology. I have (in short responses) gone to some trouble to use terms such as “Darwinian paradigm”, “semantic treatments” and “quantifiable presentation of NS”. Thus, neo-Darwinian theory is widely accepted in biology, but as you agree, there are (many) hotly debated aspects to it. NS is used almost as a fact of science, and yet detailed treatments which examine the notions of random mutations that can be directly linked to phenotype responses can hardly be considered quantified (indeed prominent evolutionists disagree at the most fundamental level on treatments - you may regard this as settled, but I do not). What is understood amongst scientist with whom I discuss such matters, is that “settled science” is meant when, for example, we can show X=f(y,z,v,w) and we can give values of X that are equated with mathematical certainty (or within the accuracy and reproducibility available for y,z,v,w, etc). If this cannot be said for some matters of evolutionary biology, it is not a condemnation of that science, but a recognition that it is the case and thus I do not regard it as settled. No religious arguments should be sought in such discussions, nor anti-religious ones.

I think these debates should be decoupled from the emotive phrases such as “even the most ill-informed creationists”, or “every rabid atheist” and instead discussions should be concerned with the faith-science matter that appears to trouble some people in the TE/EC camps, the ID groups, and from what I understand. active anti-theists who concern themselves with religious questions.

NS is an undisputed fact of science. Not even YECs question it.

Linkage of mutations to phenotypes is the subject of a vast scientific literature. An entire subdiscipline of biology called “experimental evolution” is just one area of inquiry that you are ignoring in your comments. Even if it were true that the phrase “settled science” is taken to mean “subject to simple equations,” and it isn’t, your comments would be in error as they overlook the very science you seek to critique. I will be pleased to supply some reading suggestions if you are interested in learning more about the settled science of evolution. For now, suffice it to say that the open questions in evolutionary biology have nothing to do with whether random mutations can be directly linked to phenotypes.

Eddie, your initial comments in this thread were thoughtful and interesting, rightly defending ideas of design that Prof Stump rightly seeks to rescue from misuse. You were particularly peeved with Jim about his blanket critique of “the ID camp,” and you expressed this reasonable expectation:

If you will not use the term that they adopted for their position in the way that they do – if you instead use the term in a pejorative way, to suggest opinions and attitudes that the ID theorists have not defended – you are not seriously interested in engaging the ID theorists in what they are talking about.

Since you wrote that, your comments have descended into increasingly vindictive culture-war commentary, with barbs at groups of people (TEs, ECs, atheists) that seem remarkably shallow and unconsidered. You have now arrived at the place you claim (incorrectly) that Prof Stump began: you have grossly mischaracterised the stance of a cadre of people. It’s a ■■■■ shame, because deep consideration of design concepts is something everyone – TEs, ECs, YECs, atheists – should find stimulating good fun.

I just thought you should be aware of how your generalisations appear, especially when juxtaposed with your scolding of Prof Stump.

My comments are based on about 10 years of reading TE/EC books, blog posts, and emails, . . .

I have read the works of the DI branch of the “ID camp,” over a similar period of time. Prof Stump accurately characterized this oeuvre as “. . . conditioning that community to mistrust science. Its arguments depend on accepted, settled science getting things wrong.” I suggest you sample recent activity on Meyer’s Facebook page, or look at how Behe has interacted with subject-matter experts. I suggest you read Evolution News and Views, the official outlet of the DI, and look for examples of explicit contempt for the scientific community. One might support their efforts to undermine trust in science, but I simply cannot understand how one would deny that this is one of their major goals.

I will reiterate my basic point and then allow others to conclude the discussion. That point is this: there are interesting and important questions associated with what we are calling “intelligent design.” These questions occupy some of the leaders of the “movement,” some of the time. But the camp, and most notably the DI-led and dominant group in that camp, is unmistakably and most intentionally anti-science. Wise people, who care about the ideas that you so masterfully (and rightly) defend, must work to reclaim design as a separate and worthy area of discourse, freed from its current domination by anti-science religious movements.

There is great irony in one of the chief complaints of the DI camp, that being that their ideas are not engaged by scholars and are instead ignored in the midst of culture war. (This is my paraphrase.) The DI people are right about this much: there are some interesting ideas and questions that don’t seem to get the attention they deserve. I hope that Jantzen’s book, and further scholarly discussion outside the discredited DI, will someday change that. But there is no point in spilling further ink in defence of that camp. The verdict is in, the damage irreversible. Time to move on, Eddie.

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To kick in here, I’m not sure the issue is so much about trusting science, nor about how much one group wants to create a distrust, while others want to do the opposite. Rather it is about a matter of degree.

For example, we trust God, our parents, our children, the pastor, and our government, to different degrees. Hopefully our children trust us, but we don’t want them to trust us more than they trust God. In the same way, I doubt anyone of any camp is saying that we should never ever trust science. Such black and white terms are inappropriate, and lead to mischaracterization.

When ID or YEC say to take science with a grain of salt, they are paying attention to when certain data was wrong or incomplete, or misinterpreted. This is not unreasonable, nor does it imply that science can never be trusted. But Science is not God, is not perfect, and makes mistakes, just as true scientists often point out while they suggest that eventually these mistakes get corrected. Which may well be true, but it proves the point nevertheless. Even peer reviewed journals are not perfect. It is not wrong to examine conclusions, data, theory, interpretations of data. Doing so does not make anyone anti-science. Nor does limiting the scope of science make anyone anti-science, no more than limiting the authority of your children make one anti-children.

But blanket non-qualified generalizations once again make fools of us all.

If one is pretending to be a scientist but engaging only in rhetoric and not bothering to study nature oneself, one is indeed taking an anti-science position.

I don’t think that any would, unless said atheists don’t understand evolutionary theory.

If you really believe this, perhaps you should name several such atheists and provide quotes to that effect. Pretending that natural selection is merely an accident (even worse from a Christian perspective, not seeing God in it) is engaging in a straw man argument that is uncharitable and is clearly wrong.

John, if you’re pretending that science is just about rhetoric and not about generating and empirically testing hypotheses, you are opposed to the very essence of science. What could be more clearly anti-science than that?

No, that’s Behe’s hypothesis.

When I wrote this post, I had a feeling it would provoke a lot of conversation. I wasn’t disappointed! :smile:

Now that the conversation is winding down, I thought I would offer my two cents on the subject matter. It seems the main problem is a lack of clarity about what “design” means (which is the point of the post), as well as a similar lack of clarity about what the Intelligent Design movement is actually about. Since Stephen Meyer has become the de-facto leader of the movement, I think it’s prudent to use one of his quotes in offering my own definition:

If there is no evidence of design, and materialistic processes can account for everything we see, then the simplest metaphysical explanation of the reality around us, the scientific reality, is the materialistic worldview: Matter and energy are eternal, self-existent, self-creating, and perfectly capable of producing everything we see around us. (source)

Before I dive into my misgivings about this view, let me state emphatically from my own experience in the movement (in high school) that this is exactly how I understood the thrust of ID: to show scientifically how materialistic processes could not account for the “design” in the world, and therefore defeat materialism and demonstrate God’s existence. A personal conversation with Michael Behe while in high school only reinforced this view. In all the reading and researching I did during those years, never once did I encounter anyone who thought “design” could refer to natural processes. I had no idea Behe affirmed common descent, for instance (and if I had known, I would have found it confusing, at the least).

As a clear consequence of my time in the ID movement (as well as my generally Creationist childhood), my faith hinged on science failing. I didn’t think of it quite like that at the time, but in retrospect, this is exactly what I was conditioned to believe.

It wasn’t until I heard Francis Collins speak (while I was in college in NYC) that I suddenly realized that the dichotomy between natural processes and “design” was far more a function of the “culture wars” than theological or philosophical necessity. Dr. Collins talked about being drawn into deeper wonder and awe before God as he investigated the genetic evidence for human evolution. Needless to say, it was a category-shattering moment.

As I reflected upon what Dr. Collins had said, I remember having another epiphany: The dichotomy between design and nature, which I had been busy maintaining, plays directly into the hands of militant atheists. In fact, I encourage you to look again at the quote above. If I had told you that Richard Dawkins had said it, would you have believed me? I hope so, because I have no doubt Dawkins would heartily affirm it.

It was in this process of reflection that I also realized that evolutionary creationism is the only real and radical alternative to the scientific/modernistic worldview. ID seems to be an alternative, but when you drill down to the pre-suppositions undergirding the movement, it actually shares much more with Dawkins than it denies. Evolutionary creationists are the only ones in the entire origins debate that disagree with the statement by Meyer above.

Until I saw things from this new vantage point, I was blind to the damage that the ID/Creationist perspective was doing to my ability to see God’s action alongside nature, instead of at right angles to it. Evolutionary creationism gives me the resources to deconstruct the statement by Meyer. For instance, I now see that “materialistic processes” is begging the question. Is conception and fetal development a “materialistic process”? The writer of the Psalms sure doesn’t think so. How about birds finding food? Jesus thinks God the Father is involved in that. Is that a materialistic process too?

To Christians, the category of “materialistic processes” makes no sense, and it certainly has no bearing on God’s action or lack thereof. Using that phrase as carelessly as Meyer uses it plays directly in the hands of atheists. In fact, the whole quote from Meyer is utterly at odds with Scripture and Christian theology, as I understand them. Even if everything in the universe is the result of natural processes (biblical miracles aside), atheism is no more or less “plausible” or reasonable, and no more excusable. The “materialistic worldview” is a reductionistic sham, and that won’t change with the success of science. Meyer makes the Christian faith hinge on things that actually have no bearing on our faith, and that’s a tragedy.

We need to reject the dichotomizations given to us by modernity and its wars, and cultivate a more Christian imagination as it pertains to God’s relationship to his Creation. For further reference, read everything by McGrath.

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It is illogical to suggest that one is anti-science if one does not study nature. Like saying that one is anti-female if not dating.

Never pretended that natural selection is an accident. But natural selection is not evolution.

I doubt Behe owns the hypothesis. If the evolutionary pathway can be demonstrated, then clearly it is not irreducible.

It seems Brad, that you have conflated ID with many different things. Probably because it has been tied to different approaches. But a horse tied to a rail does not make the horse a rail. What Eddie said makes sense to me. You appear to be a bit taking Meyer out of context. Even a Prime Minister or a President does not equal a country.

I agree, but my point is that the leaders of the ID movement are not studying nature–they are merely studying texts.

For me, the most ridiculous part of Meyer’s more recent book is his story about hiking the Burgess shale with his son. If Meyer is interested in studying nature, why hike? Why not formulate and test an ID hypothesis by looking for fossils?

Your pretense is that “some atheists would argue that the design got there by accident.” Please provide examples to support your claim.

My comment was not about ownership. My point is that you are presenting a mere hypothesis (which Behe is not even willing to study nature to test) as a fact.

Why “postulate”? Why not hypothesize and empirically test hypotheses (science) instead of writing books aimed at laypeople?

I also find it amazing that you claim to know what Behe thinks!

hi joao. behe is a ctually right about the ic problem. we indeed find such systems in nature. for example: a whale sonar need at least 2-3 parts for a minimal function. therefore- a whale sonar is ic.

you said:

“Why not formulate and test an ID hypothesis by looking for fossils?”-

we actually can do this. id prpedict that some fossil will be out of place. and indeed, this is what we find.