I moved 9 posts to an existing topic: The validity (and testability) of Michael Behe’s theories
If the designer is omnipotent, and purposely includes bugs in the design (malaria, eye worms, etc), then yes.
I would also follow such a debate [as between Venema and Myer] and so forth. And I do think the essay exchange formats (with rebuttals and even responses to rebuttals) for such debates is most informative, if not quite as exciting as verbal debates. To me, verbal debates end up showing who is the most organized / prepared / witty / fastest thinking good speaker, and so forth; which may be entertaining, but is completely irrelevant to the pursuit of truth. Essays where writers have a chance to prepare and really put their best arguments forward without the adrenaline of a microphone in their face are much more effective, I think. So I really do like essay-posting sites like Biologos, and echo your call for more exchanges between thinkers who represent the best of their various overlapping and competing camps.
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I agree with Merv that well-considered, referenced essays and responses are much more informative than verbal debates. I think such essay-debates are rare on the internet and well worth the effort.
I think much of this debate misses the deeper implication suggested by ID and, for that matter, evolution, as well. Too much time is spent debating the material and efficient causes of life and consciousness. The formal and final causes are far more important. The brute facts are: life exists and so do minds, minds that have shown the universe to be moving toward deep self awareness. Whatever gave rise to what we see ultimately has to possess these potentialities within itself or such things would have never arisen. This is a staggering implication. Yet, it is almost never discussed. Empiricists, if we are to take them seriously, have to do much better than the multiverse or the anthropic principle to explain these reality structures. They must explain not how, but WHY. The how is interesting but the why is foundational. So much of this debate pinions about the wrong discussion. Scientists may disdain philosophy because they work with brute facts. But a good scientist, I suggest, should be willing to follow the implications to their utter roots when not doing the “how.” One cannot just turn off the mental spigot because it is convenient in preserving one’s world view filter. Scientists often disdain philosophical contemplation because it does not produce lab results. Fine. Then keep your conclusions in the lab as well. Once one goes beyond empirical data collection, one has to begin to grope with far more difficult issues.
Ergo, let’s move to something much more interesting than ID versus evolution. Lets move to WHY the potentialities that find fruition in this universe exist at all. That is a subject really worth discussing.
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The statement you mention was written by Alex, not me. Alex is not available to comment, and I won’t try to unpack what he personally thinks about the matter, any more than he has already written.
However, I do think you’re on to something interesting and important, so here’s my own thoughts.
One of my favorite movies ever is Contact. Ever seen it? Absolutely fascinating movie. I’ve always found the SETI program to be a provocative window into our times, and Contact successfully deconstructs the longing for God behind it. While I personally have no problem with intelligent life elsewhere in the universe, I do think the huge output of resources towards that end in our times is symptomatic of our materialistic outlook. In other words, I think a lot of what drives the search for intelligence in the universe is a loss of ability to see the transcendent all around us. But I don’t think SETI should be shut down or anything.
And yes, I see the links between SETI and the ID movement. In fact, I think the strong resemblance between the movements is good evidence of what I wrote about on a separate thread about how ID unintentionally reinforces the materialistic worldview it seeks to oppose. Put simply, I think trying to find signs of intelligence and design in Nature subtly reinforces the notion that we live in a “purely natural” reality evacuated of essential meaning (in which meaning must be found only by empirically demonstrating the existence of a superior being or beings). I know that’s not how many ID folks see nature, but I think it’s a side consequence of their ideas.
Maybe another way to say this is that, in the modern scientific age, almost everybody subscribes to ID—the difference is simply in whether people think we’ve actually found the intelligent designer. And, as you might have guessed, I’m far more interested personally in deconstructing the entire modern worldview through the lens of Christian faith. Of course I’m with Alex in saying that BioLogos is on the right track.
Whatever gave rise to what we see ultimately has to possess these
potentialities within itself or such things would have never arisen.
You are just assuming what you want to prove.
Hi @BradKramer,
Correct me if I’m mistaken, but from the fact that you think that SETI should not be shut down, it appears that you disagree with Alex, and think that it is possible to demonstrate the existence of intelligent agency using scientific tools.
Well, this is certainly an old argument, isn’t it. How could a perfect, all-knowing and all powerful creator God permit evil such as disease, accidents, wars, hatred, persecution, hurricanes, etc. Can’t say there is a good answer for this, other than the fact that Genesis indicates this did not come about until man rejected God. In the book of Job, he had questions for God. And finally came to grips with the fact that since God created him, he had to accept how he did it, and His right to it, however he did it and however he maintains it.
God does give us some choices… and how we choose will establish our relationship with God. So why would a perfect God allow us to reject Him?
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I very much like to verify the consistency of concidences that atheists and ECists have: they blame God for natural tragedies but never attribute them to evolution. Why?
@piopio
How does an atheist blame God for anything if they don’t acknowledge he exists in the first place? And how is a theist acknowledging evil exists in a world God is ultimately sovereign over “blaming God” for evil?
Exactly…! I don’t know how, if atheists don’t believe in God why they blame him for natural tragedies that are caused just by evolution. And even more! They kind of “believe literally” in the Bible when they critic some “weird” things that God commands to do in the Old Testament. They take those things as literal truths. Of course you will say that they don’t believe that those things happened. Ok, but you should recognize that in any case, there IS a persistent consistency and a big likeness between what ECists and atheists say about this matter. I like how passionate some guys become articulating an atheist defense…!
joao. feel free to diisprove my claim. why do you think that miller claim hold water?
@Bilbo I think it’s fair to say that if I had written that sentence, I would have worded it differently than Alex.
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Pipio, I’m not sure about your conclusion. Yes atheists blame God who doesn’t exist (from their perspective) as a way of justifying that they do not believe in God. It is as if to ask, who wants to believe in a god that allows natural tragedies? EC blame evolution and God, for natural tragedies. Evolution in the process, and God in the original design of the process.
But some will then get around this by saying that natural tragedies are not evil. They just are. And there is a bit of a point to this, since it is our reactions to these events that have the opportunity of good or evil. Again, this is manifest in the choices we make. Do we blame God for our own sin, for our own disobedience and pride, or do we acknowledge the greatness of God, and God’s right to create and sustain, and do we repent, and accept God, or reject Him?
Hi Roger,
While I think that the problem of evil that Lou refers to is one of the most important challenges to Theism and he is right to take it seriously, I think your question is very astute. Anyone who thinks we could make a universe that includes courage, honor, virtue and ultimately any real forms of value out of a divine nursery where there is no real struggle and where we are all protected from actual danger should try the thought experiment. I think we would be left with very little that we hold to be meaningful or worth fighting for. So good point and maybe one of the most relevant responses to this challenge.
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No, Roger. However, if you will always excuse even the most horrific things, then your belief that god is benevolent is just devoid of meaning.
There is no question of an excuse.
You have to look at every situation individually. There is no question that life can be and often is difficult and painful, but also true that God gives us the ability to withstand the pain. God gives humans the ability to prevent and to treat disease. We also have the ability also to medicate pain.
The most horrific things I would expect to be human created suffering, like the betrayal and crucifixion of Jesus Christ. Certainly we agree with the reality of this evil.
Without suffering there is no pleasure. Without evil there is no good. Without death there is no life.
On the other hand Christians believe that death is not the end of life, but a transition a new life with God for those who are faithful. Thus makes the most of life on earth for all God’s people.
Thank you.
You might be interested in my paper on > God and Freedom on the Academe…edu website.