I am going to ask you bluntly instead of obtusely.
What do you want here Nickolaus? Why are you here? What was the reason for this thread?
Do you expect an answer or are you just looking to vent your spleen?
All I have seen so far is rebuttal. You do not seem to accept any answer as valid.
So what are you looking for? Agreement? (no chance)
Richard
I expected some counterarguments so I could change my mind. Didn’t happen though. I also wanted some answers about the people who will end up in heaven since most here think that faith is the absolute factor to get into the pearly gates
If you have found any worth answer then go ahead and quote it. The only thing this thread has is backlash from fundamentalists and some arguments which arent that strong in my opinion.
That could be nice. I’ve never changed a mind here so it would be something wow for me because it’ll happen first time. Although I have found some from of agreement amongst some users here. Not absolute though
However yours comments and some others really makes me rethink my stance against Christians. So I guess this somewhat changed my mind. Or better putted my strong biased
Not from what I have seen
That would be impossible because it is up to God not me or anyone else. Anyone who claims certainty is lying to themselves. Judgment comes at the time of death, not before.
You have already rejected any answer so that would be pointless.
Do I think you have a right to challenge God in any way? No.
Do I think you have a right to expect God to react to your gesture as a child, no matter how sincere you may think it? No
Why should God pander to you? Who are you? (or who do you think you are?)
Is God out of the loop and impotent? Also no. But any example I give is second hand at best and you would not have to believe it. However,
You like the book of Job? What do you understand from God’s response?
The answer to some of your questions is there. I will expound if you wish.
Richard
Aren’t there instructions ? So you know we know what to do and what not?
No one really. His child. Just as everyone else. That’s why he needs to pander . Not just to me though
Yeah a lot of books in the Bible show the suffering of man. I don’t know if I like it or not. However God in the end just didn’t explain to Job why he did that. He basically said “I’m God you don’t understand” which to me is a @@@ move. And yeah so basically God makes a deal with Satan so literally God tempts his own creation this time(indirectly) and then just makes him forget what happened by giving back double the things he lost. Just like me if I destroy your house you put so much effort to build and then give you a mansion it’s gonna fix things up.
The only character of God I like is this.
"Eye for an eye,tooth for a tooth ".
That’s an honest God right there who basically says. "Yeah I don’t give a ■■■■ and I’m not gonna do nothing to bring justice in the world HOWEVER I give permission to take things into your hands and deliver it yourself. That’s cool if you ask me. Not that it changed that God is uselles but at least he is honest here
Yes, there are a few Bible stories which indicate that we do have a right to do so.
Uh… someone whom God purportedly loves…
The problem is that this has its limits. Even the love of a parent doesn’t mean they will pander to our self-destructive behaviors and demands.
Very relevant… but far from simple, requiring far more studious caution and sincerity than I am seeing in Nick.
I think Nick is venting for sure.
Aha . Because everyone is asking God for money ,sex drugs etc etc right? Of course. No one asks something good from God never. We only ask self-destructive things or people who will @@@ our lives. Aha yeap. You got us
He said a bit more than that.
And as for the bit about Satan destroying Job, that is just padding. The whole idea of Job is that our circumstance is not related to our goodness. Proverbially Sh*t happens. Sometimes the wicked prosper sometime not. And th same goes for the righteous (if such exist)
God basically is saying - Do you know what I know.? Can you think as I think? How dare you even try! (Something you seem to want to do)
No one has the right to challenge God. Judge God or even criticise God (something else you seem to like to do)
It’s no secret. Behave perfectly. Um, but that is probably impossible. Not because of Adam or any inherent capacity to sin, but because there is so much opportunity to make a mistake. Enter Christ.
The forgiveness offered is not related to anything we do. It is just saying that if you make a mistake you do not have to either suffer guilt or even suffer consequences. Just ask for forgiveness and it will be given. Isn’t that brilliant?
I do not think we should look at things in terms of a carrot (heaven) or a stick (hell). Live this life and do not worry about what is to follow. We have enough problems here.
Is this at all helpful?
(Feel free to argue your case. I am not going to be offended)
Richard
This goes back to the argument I presented above . So it’s a circle .
Sure how dare you even try while Im sitting there watching how life “rapes” you. Wonderful father right there .
He gave me that freedom and so there I’m criticizing him. If he didn’t want to get criticized he should’ve get his mind right.
So a child shouldn’t criticize his father if he is not a good example? Curious
Cool and all that but for that to happen you need to have faith and a relationship. Some people (like me got none). So should I ready myself for going straight down?
Shock!
Big difference there between your idea of God and mine
The God I know would certainly say there is so much that we don’t know and understand. But He would also say, PLEASE dare to try thinking as I do!!! The God I know would VERY much like us to grow up, learn, and seek greater understanding. He has no need to keep us ignorant, dependent and helpless. He desires the opposite!
Who told you that? And who told you that you do not have the right to be forgiven?
Nope. It’s life. Deal with it
What do you expect Him to do? Stop evil?
Now think carefully, what would happen if God tried to stop all evil? Where is your freedom now?
If you want to be free to live then you have to accept the freedom to die or be hurt. remove one, you lose the other.
Do you really think you are better than God? or could run the world better?
Richard
So me an antitheist can ask forgivenmes even though I criticize God and don’t want nothing to do with him anymore?
That’s why I said it’s a circle. That’s what I’m arguing. That God coudve found a way to both create a free world and without sin.
No but that doesn’t mean that God will get off the hook. And infite being could have found a way. I won’t say it again. I’ve stated that a bizzilion times here. And if you couldn’t he is uselles
Go on then postulate. Show me a way to give freedom of choice without one of those choices being evil? Do you think evil is some sort of being? DO you think evil was actually created?
Evil is a consequence of choice. Otherwise there is no choice. If you remove the evil option then you are removing freedom of choice.
You are asking for the impossible. Paradise with choice. It cannot be. All the visions, all the dreams, even Eden itself. All impossible with freedom of choice. All impossible with the parameters of the world now. God’s choice was to allow evil to exist, because without it there can be no good. I challenge ** you** to find an alternative!
No He could not. You are kidding yourself to think otherwise.
If he “buys back in”, yes. But if you are an atheist why should you care? (and who will you ask?)If there is no God then there is no Heaven or Hell. (and therefore no need for forgiveness) If you believe in Hell then you are not a true atheist, just confused.
Make up your mind. If God exists then you have to deal with Him as He is, not as you want Him to be. You cannot just reinvent God, or change the world to suit your personal ideals. The world is, whether God created it or not. And Your reactions to it are what wrote the Garden of Eden story. Genesis 2-4 is trying to explain why there is pain and weeds and life is so hard. The answer it gives is pure fantasy. Idealistic? Theological? Take your pick. But it is not hstory and it is not reality and it never happened.
Richard
We never do anything that we don’t want to do. We may very much dislike what we are doing, but we always have the choice of not doing it and suffering (or not) the consequences.
I don’t think this is helpful.
That is too easily a justification for the devil to get you to worship HIM.
Are we to accept that God is a puritanical, hard hearted, controlling, wrathful, and sadistic megalomaniac just because some fundie Xtian says so and thus worship such a monster?
I will consider all possibilities, but in the case of the Gnostic Demiurge or a God like the fundies describe, such will have only my contempt and defiance no matter how hopeless and foolish it may be. No compromise is possible with such a monster god no matter what his threats may be.
So yes, I will worship a God of goodness and love no matter how far and invisible He may be – even if He is powerless to help me.
I do not see HIm as such (and my reply on the other thread reflects that)
All I am saying is that we cannot expect God to match our ideals. God is what God is, not what we want Him to be or even might think He should be.
Traditionally the devil poses as the ideal human God and uses our ideals against us. It is why he can be so persuasive, because he appears to be what we want, at least at first glance. And I would take this as part of my argument against ideals and matching God to them.
Richard
Either it was there from the begining or it was created ,no other way around it.Sin=evil
So he is uselles.Or at least not allpowerfull
If and only if there is a chance all of this is real you think i want to be alone eternally?
Im not God.
You seem to not be able to make up your mind.
Not really.If he exists i despise him ,but id also want to know if i can get that reward he is promising after this life/Simple
Nice. The answer is no, you cannot have it both ways. Like not studying and failing an exam and then blaming God for it.
On my way to hell it is then sigh.Unless you know Universalism happens 
“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6
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