Don’t worry, I don’t believe it for a second. The Old Testament is very ambiguous regarding the afterlife.
Hebrew is not the words of Christ. And I am not changing the definition of selfless you are.
If I took a comment out of context by copying it off you then you did it first just like your quote from Hebrews. I haven’t found it as common here but you can’t just hoik a verse out of Scripture and expect it to mean what you say it does.
If it is unperceived then it cannot be part of your thinking.
Selfless means without reguard to self. You cannot change that.
Richard
You cannot change that.
There are some hints in Ecclesisates about reward or punishment but in genreal the jews believe in the place of the dead, (Sheol) everyone goes there righteous or not. There is no life there itis just oblivion.but the individual persists and may be called as in Samuel. But such an act is actually forbidden.
Richard
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Then selfless love is an Oxymoron,
But it exists and you appear to be not believing it as pure or reputable. Shame on you.
May they rest in peace
Richard
I do not know why that is a problem. Do you disbelieve that Jesus knew that he would have a joyful future with those he came to save?
What are you scolding me about, exactly?
I am just pointing out that there is more depth to selfless love than you are allowing.
Please give me a counterexample to prove your point (Jesus isn’t one, as I already have demonstrated.)
Jesus was/is God on Earth, I would not presume to impose anything onto Him
War Heroes.
And I thought I was cynical.
You are tryig to suggest that Love must be self-interest? The whole point of Mothering Sunday is the opposite. That a Mother’s love is anything but self-interest.
I almost feel sorry for you.
I think I just did,
Richard.
Sorry for chiming in here but this further proves my point I think. Combine that with other violent verses in the OT I think this somehow is a hint that God isn’t really all-good in the end. I might be wrong but that’s my understanding
Depends on which ideas you focus on, and which actions. The God of Exodus is not the same as the God of David (In character I mean) and the New Testament view is different again. Same God, different viewpoints.
Your view of God (and Christianity) is based on your experiences. I might be so bold as to suggest that not all Christians are the same. We may claim it but as Christ Himself pointed out, that means nothing if the actions do not reflect the claims. (or beliefs).
I doubt very much that anything I say will alter your basic view so I am not sure how we can continue.
You’ll notice I have not really confronted most of your claims about the Bible or God
Richard
Assuming I read what preceded it.
I agree that free will does not depend on external circumstances, but the expression of it does. I can’t fly. I can’t go to the moon, I would be foolhardy to insist on using a wheelchair, but it might be (is) a valid free will choice. Free will is the freedom to choose within what ever parameters you are in. It does not mean freedom beyond those parameters.
Agreed?
Richard
I said what I meant to say. There is an implicit reward, some kind of gratification, in any kind of love. The implications of the preposition are more than a little different than the ontological verb be.
Mothers get no gratification in caring for their children. Is that what you meant to say? There is gratification even when sacrifice is involved. There are certainly some mothers who resent making sacrifices for their children, but that is not love. A loving mother gets gratification during her sacrifice, and more than that, she is looking forward above and beyond the sacrifice towards the future, not entirely unlike an athlete making sacrifices during training for a future event.
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Moderator note: please stop the quibbling back and forth. I’ve deleted several posts this far and may need to keep going back. I suggest some of you take a break from responding or further action may be required.
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Please note, the conversation that followed this was deleted by a moderator. I will not try again.
Richard
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Jesus taught us told us others to love others as we love ourselves, which I take as meaning as much as we love ourselves. This means that we do not love ourselves less than others or more than others, but as much as others. To love is to do what is best for everyone even though it may or may not be in our perceived self-interest. Enlightened self-interest might be good, but it is too subjective for my taste.
I understand that it seemed to you that God did not seem to care about your pain and suffering and that is why you left the faith at age 13. On the other hand, it is my experience and the experience of others that God did care and God does still care about your pain and suffering.
Do what happened to make you think that God had rejected you? Your testimony caused me to remember another testimony that appeared on these pages not too long ago. It was the story of boy who had been abused by a pedophile priest. I do not know if this is what we are talking about, but it is very true that we cannot understand the pain caused by this terrible act of a man of God using his position to prey upon children.
Sadly, the family friends of the child refused believe that their priest would do such a thing and the hierarchy of the Church did not stand for him either. Thus, the people who should have personified God’s love did not and therefore the boy reasonably believed that God did not care for him and his pain. Only non-believers demonstrated their care for him.
Itis hard to judge others from a afar, afar in time and place, but it seems evident that there is only one person who is at primary fault in this situation and that is the abuser.
The laity, family and friends, made the mistake of confusing a man of God for God. He was human and very capable of sin and not above sin. Biblical theology insist that humans are not God and must not be seen as such. The Church must also be very aware that it is not God,. but is given the responsibility to care for all of God’s people.
We know that the laity should have stood up for the abused and the Church should have disciplined the abuser. That would have helped the abused feel cared for and show that he is important in God’s eyes, but these alone are not enough to heal the trauma of this event which is the real issue.
Fear and hatred will continue to distort the life of the abused if forgiveness does not take place. Forgiveness allows people to take back their lives back from trauma, fear and anger. Forgiveness does not approve of sin and evil but demonstrates the fact that love and goodness are stronger than sin and evil. Those who are under the power of sin and evil are to be pitied for their blindness and ignorance. Forgiveness is needed because it provides needed healing of trauma.
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Where did you get that? When I was 13 I was an atheist. I left my faith half a year ago. And then became an antitheist
Umm noo? This isn’t what we are talking about. I’ve given a glimpse of my personal experiences of other Christians above. Read more carefully before you make assumptions like these
As I said before if God wouldbe cared he would’ve showed it. But instead he didn’t . I won’t go into writing this again. I’ve answered this before to @Combine_Advisor . Go read it yourself
Indeed, I agree, just like in game, your body can’t do absolutely anything, but there are things you can do, and within those things you can choose what to do, but nothing more than that.
I mostly agree with @RichardG on this one.
People certainly can experience and act according to self-less love without any self-interest whatsoever.
To be sure, we often see people doing acts which have the appearance of being self-less but are really out of self-interest. And yes people can do things out of enlightened self-interest and that is simply not self-less. Furthermore I think the faith we are called to as Christians is that of doing for others without seeking any reward… yes to be self-less. Which is NOT the same as being without self love… and it certainly does not mean we are called to be entirely self-less – that would be pathological. Why? Because we are only a few step from being babies whose only responsibility is themselves and even as we mature it remains the case that our primary responsibility is still ourselves – our learning, our growth, our well-being. So while acts of self-sacrifice can be applauded, they can also be carried too far where they cease to be a good thing anymore.
Yes. Jesus is clearly assuming that we do love ourselves. And I think there is a good reason for it. Over and over again I see examples of how people who do not love themselves are not even able to love others. BUT one way that Christians understand/manage this is by feeling the love God has for them – that is all the “self-love” you need.
It is true that truly self-less actions can bring happiness and God assures us that it will. But that doesn’t mean that such a hope or promise are why people do such things.
And there is a difference between feeling some self-gratification having done self-less things, and doing those things because you are seeking self-gratification. So just because you can imagine some sort of self-interest involved in the things people do, doesn’t mean that is actually the reason why they do them. THAT is the flaw in one of the arguments I often see being made for self-interest being inescapable.
I’m a bit confused at your response as you said that God failed at teaching the first humans and yet, you seem to somehow blame humans (if I understand you correctly).
If you carefully read Genesis 3, everything the snake said turned out to be true. Talk about failure! According to the book of Genesis, the only reason the people don’t live forever is that they have been prevented from eating of the tree of life. This is why God had to throw them out of the garden of Eden. Now, imagine our predicament. We have this teacher God who is telling us wrong things, and then blames us eternally for doubting him!
Also, Jews don’t believe in Hell. Torah doesn’t say anything about eternal punishment in Hell after we die. This seems like another big omission by this God, who (allegedly) wants us to know the truth.
The person with more wisdom and power is held to a higher standard of responsibility, yes? For example, let’s look at a child dying from meningitis. Who’s responsible? The child? The doctor? Usually Christians would blame “the sin” for this death. But suppose we learn that the child was brought to a hospital where the doctors did not treat the child properly. Hospital staff failed to administer proper medications. Suddenly, the doctors and hospital staff become responsible.
Imagine that Someone having a guaranteed cure, with 100 pct success rate for childhood cancer. Imagine that such a person refuses to release this cure into the word for whatever reason. They’d be the most evil monster known to humanity if this were true. They’d be blamed for every single case of a dying child. And rightly so. So, if God has this cure, why isn’t he responsible for every evil that takes place?
Of course, mainstream Christianity hints that suffering is actually Gods plan. Majority of all people will end up suffering for all eternity in this God’s hell. And there are Christians (who are Calvinists) who will admit that God predetermined everything to be just the way it is. He designed everything this way. So, why is t God responsible for everything, considering he knew how things would turn out beforehand and yet, chose to press the “start” button anyways?