That happens when you think about it as any other object in world.
I once shared a form of the ontological argument I got from Sproul and Gerstner with the philosophy of religion professor from my school, who was a noteworthy student of Plantinga, and as we talked about a necessary being, he leaned back in his chair and pictured an object with his hands and puzzled how it could be necessary.
Yes, if we believe in theory that completely everything, even concepts such as good, death and justice were created by God then I have to agree, concept such as evil was also created by God. I am unsure if this is how it really works but let’s assume it is.
I will admit, I can’t possibly tell you if God could have made reality or concepts that are better or worse, in the end, the perfect reality seems as something illogical in itself, it seems there is always some small change that could have been better, even if by miniscule amount, if everything can exist and God is unbound by any logic and reason he could always find a better universe that the one right now, no matter how much you add to a number you will never reach infinity, no matter how much you will divide you will always have lower decimal value.
I don’t think I ever put limitations on God in my previous posts, maybe I did. In the end, if we assume God’s omnipotence to be valid, there’s no way to grasp how his decisions are made, and yet he has chosen this universe, and if this is the reality that he has chosen, it’s not only good, it’s perfect, there is no possible universe or logic that could be better than the one you live in right now. At the same time, it’s a paradox, there’s always a better universe God could create to fit his plans.
There comes realization then, either our understanding of omnipotence is flawed and ultimate being works a lot differently than we thought or simply true omnipotence cannot exist. Either way, with out finite minds we can only wonder on how it all works. Maybe what we call “evil” isn’t bad and “good” isn’t good at all?? Maybe those are just perfect to achieve the tasks they were supposed to?
If this is the truth, then just as space and time shifts around the maximum speed constant, morality, justice, all concepts, would shift around whatever God has decided.
That’s why I tip more to view that God is not completely omnipotent, he may be, but if he is his decisions simply cannot be evaluated by us, and that’s what I see as troubling. But in some way or another we have to embrace at least some of this understanding, after all ideology that escapes from anything that doesn’t make sense will never reflect the truth, in the end it’s clear that there is some paradox in it. Both theories, that God or universe or laws of physics were created from nothing or were here forever, don’t make sense to human mind, even well agreed idea, that time didn’t exist before Bing Bang, also makes no sense to humans, whenever the thing that doesn’t make sense will come in our everyday life, or deeply into how universe works or even deeper, in rules that govern spirituality, we will hit the border when there’s something that simply makes no sense, and yet happened.
I applaud you though for discussing even though there’s a harsh opposition from many people to your ideas. If you want to keep discussing this topic I think we should talk about interpretation of omnipotence that doesn’t break logic or we will just reach stalemate. There’s no sensible way to assess a being that doesn’t adhere to logic.
And I’ll try to stay out of other folks’ conversations more often.
Neither had I until this forum’s resident anti-theist proposed the concept.
… will wonders never cease?
The ideas we bring to these discussions regarding God (or gods) and matters of good and evil are all understood within the context of our own limitations. Thus, the question should begin imo with asking how we can speak of God (and many have given opinions over the centuries). To know about God requires that what is known is comprehended and is the context of a human’s awareness. Knowledge cannot be considered such, if a human being cannot be aware in some manner of what is being known. Christianity considers God as a being with attributes such as, for example, all-powerful, all-knowing, all-wise, eternal, unlimited by space and time, and so on. Yet it is not possible to point to anything that a human being may know or identify that would fit these attributes. One may point to the universe as infinite in some way, and be satisfied that such an attribute is known, without necessarily having direct knowledge of God. Meaning for a human being, however, requires that it be within and part of the person, otherwise knowledge can only be of an object - such knowledge derives its meaning from sense responses to that object. If a human being cannot obtain meaning within self, speculation, and scepticism result. Meaning, however, may be attributed to an idea that would be intelligently constructed as an idea of god. This would be a synthesis of an idea and the meaning is part of that idea.
The argument may be stated another way. A human being can say ‘God’ and attribute additional words to the term, to be satisfied that the word has been used correctly in that language.
Thus we may discuss these matters, but we can not arrive at a scientifically testable conclusion, nor can we do anything except endeavor to apply reason and logic to such questions. Christian theology has addressed many of these matters and I guess we will continue such discussions.
Thank you for that. A healthy human mind is not hostile to any idea. It’s those who are uncertain if what they believe it’s true that are. The people who oppose my ideas here and don’t even try to look deeper and understand my arguments(just as you have made and some others) are the same Christian fundamentalists you’ll find in YEC. They just happen to have a few braincells more to accept and understand evolution. Good for them. They are insecure in their ideas and are afraid to admit certain things about God(like you did)I’m surprised they let you off the hook and didn’t come right back at you with a comment saying “This is blasphemy”,or “your theology is wrong”
Anyway as for the latter part
Hmmm that would be ok. So what interpretation do you have about It? And that 'doesnt break logic"? Didn’t really catch that sorry
Are you aware of the old One and the Many question?
The question(s) on evil and the creation need to be clearly stated. On the one hand, since all came into being by the Word, the ultimate responsibility for the creation is with God. The Christian faith teaches us that Christ accepted this responsibility and took on the consequences for sin and died on the cross, to redeem the creation. On the other hand, this does not remove our responsibility for any evil we may intentionally do, and thus we are admonished to repent and ask for forgiveness. The Gospels clearly show that Christ healed and cured anyone who asked in faith. This is unambiguous, just as the condition that we ask to be healed.
This matter can hardly be clearer - so I ak why the, “but what if…” suggestions made here?
No I’m not. Please tell or point me in the right direction.
Yeah, I love these guys!
In all seriousness, what are the old One and the Many?
My guess is that this is what he is referring to, but it’s not that old (ca. 1980), philosophically speaking:
The Problem of the Many (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
Okay, thanks!
@Combine_Advisor:
@Relates threw you off track with his question. He wrote:
What he meant was: "Are you aware of the old question about/philosophical problem of “the One and the Many?” not “Are you aware of the Old One and the Many?” The question/problem is old, not the “One”.
@Dale 's link is about the philosophical problem: “the One and the Many”.
Why personify evil? Why must it be given a beginning? Evil is as evil does. It is a consequence of creation not a physical part or even a part of any design.
If we are going to us Genesis 3-4… Before they had free will, or the knowledge that goes with it they had no concept of evil. For them it did not exist. Once they ate that changed. Evil was now real. That was the poison of the apple. That was why sin was now possible (I see no reason to personify or materialise sin either).
Richard
I see God as ultimate being, if there’s knowledge or power or strength or meaning to be found, God has it, but I think there are limits to what God can do, there are things that simply cannot be achieved, there are things that are in some aspects, equal to him.
Because our relationship is based on our agreement with God and I don’t see any way that God couldn’t foresee what we will do if he created us, I think if God decided to have relationship with us it makes sense that our free will is as free as God is free.
That means I believe in pre-existance, God spirit, your spirit, my spirit, they are all eternal. For some reason though, God’s spirit can act, and not only somewhat act, his decisions have no limits, except he cannot foresee decisions of other spirits.
In God’s existence, there’s always something above logic whether it’s lifting a stone he cannot lift or foreseeing his own actions, but I think our choice also has this quality, free will is illogical, our choices are itself beyond logic, they are not based on previous actions, but they also aren’t random. God giving us bodies, made us in his image, now our choices have consequences, before, no matter our choice, nothing would happen.
So God cannot take our choices from us, he cannot possibly stop us or even foresee in the long term how we would act, this is an overview of my ideology, if you have criticism on it, I will be glad to hear it.
Thing such as “if God is omnipotent he can create another being greater than himself. Then he can kill this being because God can do anything”. I can’t follow logic like that, maybe this is how God works but then I am unable to discuss about him. So I want him to have at least some limits, and in this case the limit is free will. God cannot foresee a free choice.
But if we are also part of God’s creation doesn’t responsibility of our actions also fall on him?
Wasn’t eating apple itself a sin? That means they sinned before there was a sin. Even if Evil can’t be personified, I think concept it presents existed before eating the apple. If not then how can one explain eating the apple?
Ahh i see.Origenism right?(if youre familiar with the term).You are the first person on this forum and generally that i meet who hold this position(correct if im wrong ). Very insightfull!!
See if God cant really see our actions beforehand then prayer is uselles right?Can he see his own actions beforehand?(or from the other persons of the trinity?)If not how did Jesus knew he was gonna die and raised again? If God cant predict our actions how then many prophets from the Old Testament with the help of God did just that? Didnt God knew that Abraham would obey him and try to sacrifice his son?
From the holy book that doesnt make any sense(if we are to believe the stories)
And thats where this comes in
See i understand your view and i pretty much like it.But the whole bible contradicts it unfortunately.
So we are really left with speculation.
If we are to believe the stories of the bible your view goes against them and clearly you would be wrong.
However if we are to disgard these stories your view its very much plausible and clearly im on the wrong with what ive said above in some extent
You created a good scapegoat for God though and im impressed.Ill give you that.You lifted the blame from God by arguing about how he cant foresee any action . 
.(No sarcasm here)
Your statement seems to suggest that we are not morally responsible for our decisions and actions - this would be consistent with the legal view that such people are so because of mental disease. I do not think we are all mentally incompetent; we can choose to do things and not to do other. Since that is what most of us see as humanity, we must necessarily accept responsibility.
God says that we are limited and may make mistakes, and He has provided a way to find forgiveness. Communities take this and seek to prevent injuries and also find remedies.
All of these matters are part of the creation and we need to understand this.
On sin before A&E, Orthodoxy believes this originated with Satan and A&E were deceived by the devil, so again redemption is provided to them. The point is that once they believed the lies and acted on these, they were not offered the tree of life (which symbolizes eternal life with God) - thus we see the work of Christ.
I guess this conversation can spiral down to, why did God allow satan, and so on and on… I think that would be outside of this thread. The opinions presented are more in line with somehow saying God can/or cannot do this or that, with what I sense is the notion there is no god, otherwise why all of this or that - so discussions on A&E take us away from the thread.
Im actually baffled as to why you havent understadn that the whole thread has already come down to God responsibility and why didnt God “prevented” us beforehand.All your comments are way out of this thread.I suggest reading it from the begining
This is the comment that caught my attention and I have tried to respond to it. I have not read all the comments, but at a glance, these seem to cover a vast area (freedom, the nature of humans and our understanding of God, spirit, Adam and Eve, just to mention a few).
I admit that I do not have the time or inclination to explore the plethora of topics brought up.
Assuming there was both an Adam and an apple…
There are two disparate views:
1 Adam was an inocent and inocents can’t sin, so no
2 Sin is disobedience and Adam disobeyed so yes.
Throw your hat where you will
The fact is that it will depend on your definition of Sin.
Why should it?
You want freedom to choose? Sin becomes part of that freedom. It is a consequence not a design, therefore culpability is neutral.
Besides, do you think you can either Judge or blame God for anything?
Richard
“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6
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