Quantum void, Akashic field and information


(Scott koshland) #1

Do you think that an quantum void can exist outside of our space time that has no matter or laws of physics but could contain information what Ervin Laszlo calls the Akashic field.?


(Matthew Pevarnik) #2

Never heard of it so I had to look up a quote of it:

Recent discoveries in the new field of vacuum physics now show that this Akashic field is real and has its equivalent in the zero-point field that underlies space itself. This field consists of a subtle sea of fluctuating energies from which all things arise: atoms and galaxies, stars and planets, living beings, and even consciousness.

My take- that’s hobblygobbly pseudoscience covered in a quantum woo word salad. It’s just a lie that misunderstands the fields of Cosmology and quantum mechanics and puts words into scientists mouths that makes no sense. I understand all the words individually and most of them mean something but not together in this order.

But this sounds like another example of someone who believes some ancient philosophy to be true and thus they imagine it is places that it is not. As in, ‘aha modern science just confirmed this thousand year perspective written by ancient people who knew nothing of modern physics. Every major religion has people arguing this: many Muslims say this about the Quran, many Hindus the Rig Veda, many Christians the Bible. And they all argue that science confirms their books in particular, which is contradictory and cannot all be true. To me, this BioLogos article is so refreshing and honest:


(Scott koshland) #3

How do you describe the so called quantum void? Do you think the laws of the universe exist in the void. Time? Space? Information? Can matter exist in this void? Can the void generate energy or virtual particles from nothing?


(Matthew Pevarnik) #4

The quantum what? What are you talking about? I suppose I should clarify what I meant by ‘hobblygobbly pseudoscience covered in a quantum woo word salad.’

There is no quantum void that all matter time and space magically popped out of. It is a lie that ‘recent discoveries in the new field of vacuum physics now show that this Akashic field is real.’ That is nonsense though I much like the hobblygobbly wording much better.

No. Virtual particles don’t come from nothing and any temporary energy borrowing so to speak must quickly dissipate as they obey Heisenberg’s Uncertainty principle. Most cosmologists would argue that the total energy of our entire universe is zero (positive energy of matter and photons and negative energy due to gravity).

Maybe I’m missing something here and I’m always open to learning more, but I don’t have great hopes for this idea.


#5

I can’t answer much about the physics part, but as far as I know the “akashic” word has spiritual connotations. What I found in a quick search in google was mainly about how you could access your “akashic records” in order to regain memories from past lifes. So the thing is, even if the physics in his explanation were not technically wrong (which I don’t know), it would still be a large logical leap to jump from that to the possibility of doing these kinds of things like regressing to past lifes and stuff. Like Mathew, I agree that it is probably pseudo-scientific woo woo or at best trying to fit physics in a pre conceived religious belief even if some connections are really marginal and not all that clear. All things suggest that this is not a good source if you want to learn about actual physics.


(Scott koshland) #6

Well here’s the way I think of it. First of all it’s all about information. We know that information is immaterial. (See Bob Doyle Harvard informationphilosopher.com ). Yet we know it exists as we see its proxy actions in all the matter around us.

When we consider a void (quantum vacuum) in our space time it may not contain matter or energy but it still is defined in space time. There must be a true void that doesn’t contain or exist in this space time dimension. This void does not contain matter or have space time dimensions. This void is a compressed dimension or ours is an expanded dimension of the void. However, this void can still contain information. This is what I think Ervin Laszlo is calling the Akashic field.


(Matthew Pevarnik) #7

What’s all about information? Given that the word has been abused by so many in recent decades, I’d be inclined to steer away from it altogether.

Information exists because it’s effects can be seen all around us? What are you referring to here exactly? Information doesn’t do anything or interact with anything.

What is a void now? Defining it as a quantum vacuum doesn’t help me. Is it some region of our universe where there are no protons, photons, neutrinos, quarks, etc.? Such a place doesn’t exist as you can measure at least the Cosmic Microwave Background from everywhere meaning you can at least measure photons anywhere and everywhere.

A what? What does this mean? You certainly need to show some very impressive theoretical physics to even get to such a point, but even then this claim would likely be pseudoscience at best for now since we could not test it.

And this is why I think Laszlo’s idea of the Akashic field is hobblygobbly pseudoscience covered in a quantum woo word salad.

I think to actually discuss this idea, you’ll have to reference legitimate, peer-reviewed scientific papers that back up the claims you are speaking of from early universe cosmology, particle physics, and quantum mechanics. For these ideas to claim scientific legitimacy, they don’t just get to come in and throw fancy words around- they need some serious support from the scientific community. The way though that I’ve seen the idea represented so far though is filled with statements that are just untrue, misleading, and nonsensical from everything I’ve ever come across even though I regularly am engaged in scholarly articles in these areas.


(Roger A. Sawtelle) #8

I agree that information or the rational is immaterial, but you and others do not work out this information to its proper conclusion. Information is not material because it is form and not substance.

However one cannot completely separate form from substance. The laws of physics are not separate from universe itself. The people who do this kind of speculation are trying to “prove” that there was something, even “information” before the Big Bang, when there was not.

As hard as it is to talk about the nothing before the Big Bang, we know what it was not. We know that there was a Beginning of the universe, because there is no information about before the Beginning of the universe.

Information is immaterial, but it is real, in that it can be falsified. It is not real because it is natural, but because it is true. Reality is not composed of just the physical (matter/energy). It is also composed of the rational, which is purpose, and the spiritual, which is meaning.

Science only exists with the framework of Reality which is rational (philosophy) and spiritual (theology.) Until we learn to understand Reality in this way our discussions will be fruitless.


(Scott koshland) #9

Although I am not such a fan of using a generic term as information, it’s the best term I have to describe that we can understand. Two different molecules that have the same mass have the same energy. It is the immaterial information that differentiates the form of these molecules. The ordering of the energy is a proxy of this information.

At the end of the day, it’s all about information. In our universe entropy increases over time as does complexity and information. We started with a low entropy and low information universe. Entropy and information continue to increase over time. More importantly the information hierarchy increases over time. The information hierarchy is described as systems that form that control information. The information hierarchy is the amount of information controlled by an amount of information. Atoms form molecules that form more complex molecules and so on that increase the amount of information controlled in a system. From an energy standpoint I derive this from what Eric Chaisson calls the energy rate density, which Bob Doyle calls the information processing rate. I consider the energy rate density multiplied by the time of the process or existence of the system as the amount of energy processed (controlled) by an amount of energy in a given system. This is the information hierarchy that increases over time in our universe. This is information becoming organized into stable systems. This process is seen in life as well. Consider life in the form of this information hierarchy. DNA contains and encodes information that controls the formation of RNA information that controls the formation of proteins that have information that control the formation of molecules that allow the organism to control some information in its environment and so on. Life can be considered an information hierarchy. Consciousness is an hierarchal information process not a material process. Intelligence and our consciousness are all made up in a data, information, knowledge and wisdom hierarchy. (DIKW) Consider the amount of information that our consciousness controls. (Integrated information theory Guilio Tononi). Matter, life, Consciousness are all an information process and not just a material process.

So, I will stay with information.

I consider the laws of our universe spacetime to be higher hierarchal information that control the lower information that we call matter or energy. I believe the creation of the universe occurs when the information laws of the universe form in the void that result in the formation of raw information or matter in our space time. These laws are hierarchal information that dictate and control the energy contained within our space time realm. The laws of nature are as grammar rules that allow the translation of the contained information giving the information meaning or apparent material existence. The information that Is stable initially in this spacetime is conserved energy that exists in our universe.

This initially created information is the low entropy/low information matter that we see increases over time organizing into higher information structures.


(Matthew Pevarnik) #10

Unless of course they have different kinetic energies (or the total momentum of a system equals zero):

It is understandable that you did not get this statement correct, but it is incorrect to say this from a physics standpoint. So if you are going to convince me that modern physics teaches something about this Akashic field and get statements about modern physics incorrect, that is not a good way to start.

I also said that:

You either didn’t know what to say here or ignored what I requested, so I am still going to stand by this request: to be taken seriously in any scientific community, you need to have… well a testable idea that is scrutinized by the peer review process and then over time, the general consensus of the scientific community in your sub-field.

Well kind of. Complexity will eventually decrease under the current model of Cosmology at a certain point as will all consciousness as described in the heat death of the universe. It’s a rather gloomy future but at least this won’t happen for another trillion years or so!

I’m mostly tracking with you on your information paragraph in that I understand what you’re saying at least. The wording sounds a bit strange to me and again, the whole focus on ‘information’ sounds like a trap where information can mean exactly whatever you want it to me to make your point. And this information hierarchy almost makes sense, but that’s just how we look at the world as scientists. As in physicists often times focus on the tiniest systems, chemists a little larger, and biologists larger still. It’s not that the world is necessarily arranged in actual hierarchies but they are just useful groupings for gaining knowledge about the natural world.

I see.

I see. This is a rather extraordinary claim that well, modern science certainly does not affirm in any way whatsoever. So while I cannot object to you believing this, for the people teaching Akashic field stuff to actually say that science now says this… well they are just wrong.

But again that’s not even really true. More than half of stars that will ever form have already formed. They are not continually organizing into higher information structures by any means.


(Scott koshland) #11

Thank you Roger. Yes I agree that information in this world must be connected to matter to “exist”. They literally go hand in hand where you can’t have one without the other. This is what I am saying with the information hierarchy. As with letters that have no meanings without the rules of grammar so to does what I call information. It cannot exist without a hierarchal ordering set of rules dictating or translating their meaning or in the physical sense this applies to energy that cannot materially exist without the laws of nature.

It may be a step for us to understand that this concept should apply to information in general. Information that is organized into a hierarchy can form a system. It does not mean that this information system will have physical existence in this universe. As matter is conserved in this dimension so to can Information that is bound into a system be conserved.

I am surprised to hear you say that we know that nothing existed before the universe was created? Did not heaven exist? Is not heaven outside of time where all that will happen has happened in this dimension?

I recently heard the analogy supposedly said by Einstein or maybe also written on a bathroom stall at Texas AM :slightly_smiling_face: that time is just a concept so that everything doesn’t happen all at once. I think that from the perspective of a timeless dimension the events of this space time dimension would all happen at once. The events will have information that are essentially organized into systems that would exist into the timeless dimension. The dimensionless timeless dimension that can hold information. This information would be organized into hierarchal information that gives the contained information meaning as we see in our dimension.

There are many references in the Bible for the book of life or records. These references create the understanding that events or information can be retained by what we call heaven. Which I believe points to a timeless dimension that can contain this hierarchal information from our dimension.

Exodus. 32:32
Psalm 139 :16
Dan 7:10
Rev 20:12
Philippians 4
Hosea 13:12
Job 34:21. For God watches how people live, he sees everything they do.
Psalm 40:7. Book
Psalm 56:8. Are they not in your record
Psalm 69:28. May they be blotted out of the book of life, and not listed among the righteous
Isiah 30: 8. Go write on a tablet for them. Inscribe it on a scroll for these rebellious people deceitful children, unwilling to listen to the lords instruction. See no more visions
Malichai 3:16 a Book of rememberance was written him for them that feared the Lord.
Philippians 4:3. Whose names are in the book of life.
Revelations. 3:5. I will not blot his name out of the book of life
Revelations 17:8. Whose names were not written in the book of life
Revelation 20:12. The books were opened and another book was opened which is the book of life
Revelation 21:27. And there shall in no wise enter into it anything that defileth but they that are written in the lambs book of life.

And finally Jesus

Matt 16:18 And I tell you are Peter and that on this rock I will build my church… I will give you the keys to heaven. whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.


(Roger A. Sawtelle) #12

OK, one serious problem is that you used information theory to justify terrible science of the Akashic field. This cannot stand.

Information theory is not science. Science is about the physical. Information theory is about how we know what is true. That makes it part of philosophy or the philosophy of science. The primary issue here is not about information, but about thinking and knowing. Science has not not cannot adequately address this question, which is a big part of our confusion.

God is not a thing. God is the Source of all things, or the universe. Heaven is the abode of God, which means that it too is not a thing, not something physical, or spacial or temporal.

Before the universe existed there was no matter, no energy, no time, no space. No anything. Only God Who is beyond these things existed.

Time is not timeless. Time has a Beginning. God is the Beginning. In the Beginning was the Word, The Logos or rational structure of Creation Who is Jesus Christ. The Logos is God’s way of making God’s philosophy a part of the universe.

The Book of Life is a Spiritual Book, not Scientific or Philosophical. It is separate from information theory.


(Scott koshland) #13

Matthew. Thank you for your comments. These are all theories and they much verge on the metaphysical in the sense that they speculate on the existence of a different dimension from our own and on the concept of non physical information.

I understand your comments on energy mass and information. Information is difficult to describe since it is not just physical. Also I understand your comments on entropy and complexity and information over time. My main point is what I call the information hierarchy increases over time. I consider this essentially where the system is learning by trying or forming new combinations selecting those that are stable and building hierarchal information order .

Is it clear that DNA is an hierarchal information system? Life evolves learning incorporating intelligence to maintain its existence. Is it clear that our consciousness is an hierarchal information processing system? Hopefully our very discussion is to advance our understanding and knowledge ( i hope!).

Don’t get caught up on the name Akashic field name or whatever. This is a different dimension. Could there be a precursor dimension to the one that we live? The big bang really doesn’t go back in time before the initiation point. I think that there are many dimensions in string theory. I don’t understand the science because they come up with a bunch of dimensions what 10, 11. More anyone? Is There an original dimension in string theory? Are these string dimensions observable? So if some can accept this conceptual dimensions of the string theory how can we so easily discount an origin “lower” dimension? A dimension that is space less and timeless from our perspective cannot contain anything material. No light no energy no quantum fields , no time. Devoid of any thing that we can perceive in our dimension. Information takes no space , no time , no energy it is dimensionless to us. Perhaps information from our dimension can be perceived by this other dimension while we cannot easily perceive information from that dimension.

Where did the quantum fields come from? Were they just there at a zero state? How did this space time dimension arise? Then there is the vacuum catastrophe. In theory so called Fine tuning could allow the creation of this universe dimension by Selection of the necessary conditions. I think that the fine tuning as described in the anisotropic principle could imply a selection of the universal laws from this original dimension that allow the formation of the universe that we exist in.


(Matthew Pevarnik) #14

I still don’t see it. What is information and what do you mean its on a hierarchy and what do you mean that it increases over time? I understand energy, mass, entropy, and complexity to some degree, as best as one could perhaps hope being a physicist, but I don’t follow you. You define information hierarchy but maybe you could give some concrete examples. Also, what is a ‘system’ in your definition.

No. Not one bit for me.

It does? What classifies something as having ‘intelligence?’ Presumably humans have this quality, though with our intelligence we have actually driven many species extinct so far. But what about prokaryotes or viruses? Do they have intelligence? How does their intelligent help the existence of life?

No. I have no idea what you’re talking about.

I’m not. I just get caught up in sloppy pseudoscientific statements parading around as well tested scientific theories.

I agree with you there! The theory begins describing the universe after it ‘began.’

They just don’t posit random numbers of dimensions but there are mathematical constraints that posit most often 10, 11 or 26 dimensions.

No.

No. At least not yet or maybe ever.

That’s not exactly how theoretical physics works.

Sounds spooky.

Jesus.

No He made them.

The Spirit sneezed.

The what? Oh google helped me see you mean the Cosmological Constant Problem. The one where quantum mechanics predicts something 120 order of magnitude larger than what we measure through the Cosmic Microwave Background. What do you think about it? All it means is that we don’t yet have a theory of quantum gravity.

Fine tuning doesn’t do anything, it’s not a mechanism or law in itself. Where do the laws of physics come from? Nobody knows and again feel free to believe whatever you want about it but it’s certainly nothing more than speculation.


(Roger A. Sawtelle) #15

Okay we all know that the Big bang theory does not go back in time before the universe began, because there was no time before the universe began, or do you disagree?

This is the question, right? Did the universe begin with t = 1 or not? If it did, would this violate some physical law? If it did not, then doesn’t that logically mean that the universe is eternal, which violates all sorts of philosophical rules.

I was wondering about why the thinking of cosmologists like Sean Carroll is so strange, and for some reason Schrodinger’s cat came to mind. As you know the ideas was that there was a cat in a black box with a device which would kill the cat if a specific quantum event took place. Under rules of quantum physics the event in question is not predictable, but can be determined on a probability basis.

Therefore they want to say that the cat is 25 % percent dead or 75 % alive, which of course is not true. The cat is alive or dead depending on if the device is triggered or not. However this kind of thinking does give probability thinking standing. If we can say that there is a 10 % probability that the multiverse exists, then we must treat it as a real possibility, which it is not until we can determine a way to test this possibility and find it real.

For human beings death is always a possibility and in the long run it is a certainty, However one is not dead until she or he is dead, either physically dead or brain dead. I am not 80 % dead because I have outlived my life expectancy. Quantum physics has raised some real questions for how we understand life and the universe. We have a good ways to go before we can digest that is going on the quantum realm and how it applies to us.


(Scott koshland) #16

The information hierarchy can be considered in the progression as Matter leads to life that leads to a nervous system that leads to increasing intelligence ability which leads to our consciousness. These all involve advancing the hierarchal information.

Working from consciousness as an information system will then go to a nervous system that will go to life as an information system and then to matter as an information system.

The information hierarchy posits levels of different information hierarchy. The raw data of the sensory input is processed or translated into a sensation that the brain has knowledge to understanding to interpret this sensation resulting in some behavior or response to that behavior. In our consciousness we are able to control information from sensory, behavior and conceptual information such as mathematical equations. This is all control of information. Understanding. The greater the control of information then the greater the consciousness. The information hierarchy is defined as the amount of

information controlled / information of the controlling system

Control is the ability to manipulate information. The information could be data information that would contained in the memory of the brain. In the case of the brain the information controlled is related to the rate of information that is processed x time. Higher information levels allow more control of information. When we say we understand something this implies we control the information.

You can think of our consciousness in the information hierarchy in terms of a increasingly powerful computer that is able to contain and process more data. Consider all the information that we have, (I know some have more than others) this information is then assimilated into knowledge and then the knowledge is then further organized into wisdom and that controls the use of that information which can be further advanced as the information can be manipulated to create new knowledge and information. At our level of consciousness the information we are able to understand information of our knowledge and manipulate this knowledge to further increasing knowledge resulting in more information controlled.

The Information hierarchy at the lowest level contains data, translated information, then knowledge for understanding and then wisdom/creativity/problem solving allowing manipulation and application of knowledge Our brain as all creatures with some central nervous systems is an information processing system. The Brain takes in data from sensory receptors that the brain translates into information about itself and its environment. This information is then utilized by the brain to create and understanding based on knowledge of this information. The brain then utilizes some set of knowledge based on learning to possibly respond to this information. This may involve some behavior that controls the movement of the organism to respond to some sensory stimulus. All of this is information though some may involve physical activity of neurons and muscle control. It all is control of information.

.

Life is an endogenously intelligent system. Whether you consider this by design or not. All life contains utilizes and retains information, life utilizes knowledge, life learns, adapts, and creates knowledge. There are different levels of intelligence ability between all forms of life. On the other hand non life matter is not intelligent, but does contain information.

This information hierarchy process can be considered in the form of all life as we know it. Life is a continuation of this information process. In a simplified analogy The higher information hierarchal state is the controlling DNA that contains the instructions coding the information directing all aspects of the organisms existence. The DNA code is the hierarchal program that controls the organisms functions and survival. The DNA contains knowledge for controlling the activation and function of genes. .The DNA code contains evolved knowledge to allow the survival of the organism by the controlling information in itself and in its environment. The DNA encodes the information that is translated into the information of RNA that is further translated into proteins that contains knowledge and information to allow the proteins to perform some function such as catalyzing some reaction that results in further effecting and controlling information in those effected substrate structures.

This is what I mean by the information hierarchy. Our consciousness, all nervous systems, all life and even all matter exist within an information hierarchy. We should consider everything in terms of information.


(Scott koshland) #17

Yes, I agree that The Father created the universe. But the question is how did He do this? In fact I am surprised that physics doesn’t consider the possibility of a precursor dimension? A dimension with no time and no spacial dimensions? How is that? I guess it may the false vacuum? Does the universe just start always with space time dimension? Don’t think so. There must be a precursor dimension. I don’t know the validity of these links but really just to show we need to think about before time Zero.

I like the 92 dimension hypothesis.

Everything I see about nature is a sort of organizing selective process. Creation of forms of Matter, planets , stars, galaxies, life, nervous systems and consciousness. This is what I mean that with fine tuning the laws came together in the right conditions to form the universe. This universe would have been formed from a precursor dimension that could allow these laws to come together.


(Scott koshland) #18

Roger I am not trying to impair your faith in any way. I am more trying to affirm our beliefs in God and Heaven. To me the Bible is filled with truth even of the sciences and of the events that had occurred in history as best could be understood by the people of the time.

John 3:12 Do you not understand these things I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe. How then will you believe of heavenly things.

I believe that the Word is divinely ordained and includes advanced understanding of these principles and events. Information theory is science. Information in data, knowledge and wisdom are all non physical but exist. I think that many of the ancients including some Hebrew sects believed in this recording of events of our dimension into the heavenly book of life. It is interesting to consider if these ancient religions may have learned of this from the teachings of the fallen angels. Genesis 6:2

God exists before the start and after the end of the time of our world, He is outside our dimension not of this world. He is all seeing all knowing conscioussness awareness all powerful omnipotent Creator. He is real and I consider this to describe a different dimension. A dimension from which I believe our dimension originated.


(Roger A. Sawtelle) #19

As I said, I agree with you that Reality has a rational aspect ore dimension, but it also has a physical dimension and spiritual dimension which came together in Jesus Christ the Logfos and the Second Person of the Trinity.

I am on vacation starting 7/6.


(Scott koshland) #20

Have a thought on this video of information and quantum mechanics that essentially the spacetime emerges from the quantum wave function in Hilbert space.