Pregnancy: too badly designed? Zygotes not implanted, miscarriages... where's God?

Thanks for the thorough reply – yes, I agree that Job is a pretty difficult text – it’s been a while since I read the whole thing, but I recently went over Philip Yancey’s take on it in “The Bible Jesus Read.” Habakkuk is one of my favorite books, but perhaps because it has sections that strike me as more encouraging than in Job. I at least appreciate that it addresses evil, because Habakkuk asks questions that I think are very similar to what many of us ask when we look at all the evil in the world – especially his charge that God has made us like sea creatures, constantly devouring each other.

I suppose it’s inescapable that if we go back far enough, even evil beings have their advent in God – in other words, if everything comes from God, then that includes those who cause pain and suffering on earth. That can be hard to reconcile with the “good vs. evil” narrative that also runs through the Bible – it’s easy to wonder why God has to be in any kind of “combat” with the devil if he created him in the first place, or why he would create people just to send them to hell (whether one believes in ECT or conditionalism).

To get back a little bit more to the original topic, I don’t see that we could say for sure whether God “chooses” which sperm ends up with which egg (or similar things). Since he is omnipotent he certainly has the ability and prerogative to, but he also has the ability to wipe out all kinds of evil things and doesn’t – so I’m wary of making the leap from “God can control something” to “God must control it in every detail.” I guess I don’t see “being in control” and “personally micromanaging” to be the same thing. Who knows. I don’t!

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a couple of ideas are brought up in this thread, which I do not see in the bible.
1- micromanagement by God.
2- ordaining evil.
3- God’s overwriting the free-will of humans.

These are not biblical.
God’s Sovereignty is an idea that is explicitly detailed in the bible.
A couple of weeks ago I posted on facebook, and said that I see the existence of evil as something used by God to show us humans just how vile and destructive it is/can be for the purpose of saving us from our sin.
It’s written in 2 Peter 3 that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
I.e., God doesn’t want anyone to go to hell/lake of fire.
God also WANTS people to repent/metanoia/change their thoughts about God, and agree with God’s ways.
Notice something in there… God wants, and God doesn’t want.
In Proverbs 6, there are 7 things that God hates… literally, actually… HATES.
God loves the poor, widows, orphans, broken hearted, and contriteful.
God loves humans.
But at the same time— he calls us to turn to him, from out sin. He doesn’t ignore our sin. We have to deal with it, on God’s terms, or he’ll let us suffer the consequences. And as someone who’s lived with this one… those consequences are not pleasant.

Going back to my initial post, Jesus told some folks who complained about how unfair, and at times, downright vicious and cruel life can be.
Instead of lamenting with them, and saying— yeah, that is pretty bad. Well, let’s just go kick some Roman a88, and light this place up… he says— unless you repent, you too will perish.
I don’t know about you, but in this narrative Jesus responded to, I see a very basic, and simple idea. Luke 13
1- there really are some things in life we can do nothing about.
2- there’s one thing in life we really do have control over. That’s the judgment on our sin. We can turn to God, from our sin, and place our trust in Jesus. We can come to God, and receive the adoption, as sons and daughters, through placing our trust in Jesus, for the forgiveness, and cleansing of our sin.

All this said… God is in the salvation, reclamation, restoration business, when it comes to human beings.
1- Hebrews 7:25— God saves to the uttermost, all who come to him through Jesus Christ.
2- Jesus came to seek and save that which is lost. Luke 19:10
3- 2 Peter 3:9— God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
4- God’s sovereignty is throughout scripture. Genesis 1:1 through Revelation 22:21
5- truth is of the utmost importance to God. Psalm 51:6, Jeremiah 1:10, 2 Corinthians 10:4-7.
I have long found it curious that Truth is so important to God that he made a way for us to know. He then promises to remove lies, to a rather interesting point—
I send you to the nations to root out, tear down, pull down and destroy, then to plant, and to build. Jer 1:10.
Casting down false imaginations, and everything that exalts itself against the knowledge of God. 2 Cor. 10:4.
Part of God’s salvation plan for humans is to destroy lies, and falsehoods. To tear down false ideas, and beliefs about God. It so incensed him that he considered it idolatry. Exodus 20, and Hosea 4:6.
Don’t think for a single heartbeat that because you can wrap your mind around an idea that makes it true.
If it wasn’t for the bible, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, I’d be a deist. “God wound up a clock, and then walked away, and left it to run down.”

I’m also sorry that you suffered a miscarriage. In fact, I posted this thread because wife recently got pregnant and wanted to know everything about pregnancy.

I always knew that miscarriages occur. But I never knew they’re so frequent. We’re not talking about 1-2%, we’re talking about 20%! This means that if we have 10 pregnant women, two will walk away without a baby…

What’s even worse, you can never know for certain if you have miscarried or not. There are many miscarriage that are silent, or “missed”. Baby has died in uterus, while pregnancy continues ahead with all of the symptoms, tricking the woman she’s still pregnant.

If we don’t call this poor design, I don’t know what else could count.

As for the book of Job… I think this is one of the two books (the other is Revelation) that should have never been included in the Bible. The problem with Revelation was history - there were many arguments in the early church.

But the problem with Job is that the god in this book is a Straw man god. And we know very well that straw-manning is a logical fallacy.

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Congrats on the pregnancy. :slight_smile: I hope things go well for you both and that mother and baby are healthy. I went into “research mode” after getting pregnant with my first child too (though mostly having to do with labor and things like that) – there’s a huge learning curve, that’s for sure, and an awful lot of opinions on things!

Yeah… when I miscarried (after having two pregnancies/births with no major problems) I didn’t find out about it until 11 weeks – about three weeks after it most likely happened, and it took another week for the actual miscarriage to start. It’s hard to describe the feeling of knowing I’d been walking around with a child inside me, making plans for the future, never knowing that child’s heart wasn’t beating anymore, especially after seeing the heartbeat on an ultrasound around 7 weeks. I can totally understand questioning the design of all this. I can also understand that questioning coming from other parents whose children are born with defects or abnormalities that put their lives in danger, or even cause death right after birth. At the very least, it certainly doesn’t seem like something designed for a paradise-like Garden of Eden – it seems more in line with the reproduction of animals and plants – lots of waste. If we believe we’re different than the rest of nature, it can be easy to ask what that difference is when so much of the death out there seems built into us too.

I won’t rehash the opinions I’ve already given in this thread, and I’m not sure judging which books belong in the Bible is within my understanding, but I’ll just say that you’re not alone in asking tough questions about these things, either to Christians or to God. I have had to learn (or at least learn a little bit more – it’s a long, difficult process) to trust him in the midst of things that I don’t understand, and believe that he has beaten death ultimately, even though we still feel its sting every day here on earth, sometimes very personally.

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you can comment on the Job more extensively; it’s a very deep book. I thought that part of it was that there really was no answer.

I like Ecclesiastes and Pete Enn’s comment/podcast on it.

10 posts were split to a new topic: The Laryngeal Nerve is not evidence for common descent/bad design

Alright, so I’ve been struggling with this issue as well and this is a great opportunity to at least vent my thoughts (cracks knuckles). As an Eastern Orthodox Christian, I hold that the process of birth is very sacred from conception to birth. I usually hold the view that the process of birth is very natural with certain rules established, but there’s room for some chance. I don’t think that the process of birth is particularly miraculous in any strict sense, outside of Christ’s maybe. All that said, 70% of zygotes still get spontaneously aborted and 20% are miscarried after implantation, so what happens to their soul? My view is that I maintain an agnostic position on when the body is “ensouled”, Orthodox have a vague understanding of what a soul is. In the back of my mind, I try not to believe that the zygotes that are spontaneously aborted have souls. Individual catholics and orthodox may say they are, but this is not a dogmatic teaching from either institution. The reason both are against abortion is because they believe the process of life must be respected from conception onward, because Christ went through that process. Therefore, the fact that nature is cruel bears nothing on us as Christians, we only have to make due with the time we have. If we leave early or late, I’m sure whatever awaits us in the afterlife will be fair given the context. By no means is this a resolved issue for me, but I do want to tell you where I’m at with this.

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Welcome to the forum, Varton. It is good to have your perspective. Learning more from the rich traditions and theology of the Orthodox Church can only enrich our understanding.
While we try to avoid the issue of abortion here, feeling that the subject is beyond the scope of our purpose, certainly those issues of ensoulment and personhood are important, though like you, I feel that is beyond our knowing and is in the hands of God.

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Thanks for the warm welcome, and I’ll try to be more considerate next time. I edited out the abortion statements that were irrelevant to my point. Hope that’s ok!

I suspect one can boil down the OPs question to the category of “If God is good, why is there is such pain, suffering and death in the world?”

Which does bring with it the indictment of the evolutionary creation story as you’ve put it:
" There has been a lot of discussion…but the other defects from natural free env…"

There is just no satisfactory explanation for the existence of pain, suffering and death from the evolutionary viewpoint for the charge made against God as the author thereof. God is just not good in this atheistic paradigm.

This is one of the most important reasons one should simply stay with and interpret the bible as read in a straight-forward plain English way instead of foisting the atheistic evolutionary story over the word of God.

Well what is your satisfactory explanation for the existence of pain, suffering and death from your viewpoint?

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And I think that’s why this is such a tough question, because ultimately every evil being has their advent in God in some way. Why did God make Lucifer, knowing what he would do? Why did God allow him in the garden if he knew what humans would choose? As far as I’m concerned, a literalistic reading doesn’t make the problem of evil any easier to understand.

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Hear, hear!

Sometimes, @Prode, we mistake our acclimation to something for understanding. Growing up with a repeated phrase and repeating it to others may help establish a “well-worn groove” in our brain, but it has no necessary correlation to actual understanding, as we often discover when somebody who has rehearsed different answers comes by to challenge ours.

And I say this with all due respect (really!) to the habits of liturgy and their positive role in our spiritual growth. Sometimes recitations may prepare the way for actual understanding. But other times they may enshrine our misunderstandings too.

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It will be pointed out by many more than me that if God designed everthing then God designed the faults and problems and death in creation too. And if the explantion is given by belief in Genesis 3, that God later imposed these things on creation after the disobedience of Adam and Eve it means God imposed suffering on all creation because of them, which seems a bit capricious to say the least. The waste and suffering within all the natural world looks a bit mean of God if God designed it that way. That’s why I think that a freely evolving natural world is a better explanation of the suffering in creation.

Of course ultimately God will redeem and save all creation with the New Heavens and Earth. God does take responsibility for it in becoming Incarnate and the Spirit groans with all groaning creation.

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I appreciate what you and @beaglelady have to say about the unlikehood/abhorance of micromanaging in light of the horrors which don’t elicit divine intercession.

Most everyone would agree that nature is extravagant and messy. Wild dogs and hyenas will disembowel and eat an animal while it is still alive. Animals living in the water often produce enormous number of sperm or eggs just so enough can come together to permit another round. But many seem to think that since we bear God’s image and have been assigned dominion responsibilities that now we are above all that. But of course we’re not. No divine calculus determines who will inherit a debilitating disease that makes life short and painful. Neither was the kidnapper/rapist of Elizabeth Smart on any mission to mete out divine justice. We are still in the web of life. And even as we glory in the attributes which set us apart we see every day evidence of the harm people are knowingly willing to do.

Any one who thinks thoughts and prayers are enough when others are suffering hasn’t suffered or else they’ve hardened themselves to seeing it. Realistically, God or no God, what we do or fail to do to protect the vulnerable and ensure justice is what really matters. We have a responsibility to each other that can not be handed off to God.

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Actually you sound very biblical here, Mark.

Well we both know how ignorant I am of it. Hope I didn’t violate any trademarks. :wink:

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Yeah, too often “thoughts and prayers” becomes a cop-out – I know I’ve been guilty of that. While I don’t believe the Bible presents a God who just wound up the world and walked away – I believe in the power of prayer, and that he is active and cares about us – but human beings are often his means of accomplishing what he wants to do. That’s a much scarier prayer to pray – to ask what he wants us to do rather than to expect him to magically take care of it all!

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Yep, prayer actually has a place in my strange take on God belief. I think the scary kind of prayer is all any one has a realistic chance to have answered. Maybe with our suite of God’s-image attributes, we should expect to act with more independence? With all we have going on, it somehow doesn’t seem fitting to chirp like a baby bird in our nest to be fed.

There are many passages I could name, but I’m thinking especially of this one from the Epistle of James:

If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

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