Predestination or Free Will?

Sure… I just don’t equate it with the plan of creation. It’s like filing divorce papers when you get married so you are prepared if it doesn’t work out. Planning for failure is not something any God I believe in would do. Nor do I believe in the control freak God who is logically incapable of love.

What do you do with this (and similar verses)?:

Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.’ Matthew 25:34

Why do you see this as a problem???

Are you hunting for a verse to prove that God was already filing for divorce from beginning?

You may simply disagree, but I believe in predestination and free will, because that is what the Bible teaches. They are not mutually exclusive, even though to our limited thinking they may appear to be. Insisting that they are is denying scripture.

Do you believe in God’s providence? I hope so. Explain how it works (it involves planning). Shall we talk about time.

The Bible teaches predestination and free will. That much is correct. It does not, however, teach absolute predestination or absolute free will.

We covered that in the other thread. Your false dichotomy based on the antiquated idea of absolute time is meaningless. The fact that God is not a part of the measure of time in the physical universe does not mean that God is incapable of time and doesn’t change the fact that the future is a superposition of possibilities which is the only thing that enables the participation of God and human free will in the events of the world.

Yeah, we did.
 

I don’t believe in absolute time, so your criticism is meaningless.

Jesus also know that the Pharisees were plotting to kill Him and the Romans were vulnerable to p[political pressure.

There is an interesting theory, sparked in part by the listing of Simon the Zealot liste4ed as the 11th disciple while Judas is listed as the 12th in Mt 10:4. This theory says that Judas was part of a plan of the Zealots to force the hand of Jesus to lead a revolt against the Romans, which of course is what people expected the Messiah or Christ to do.

When Jesus showed signs that we was not a political Messiah, by cleansing the Temple, the Zealots tried to force His hand by having Him arrested for plotting against Caesar. The thought being that if He were arrested He would have to fight back to save His skin. Jesus did not choose to fight back, but gave His life to prevent a very bloody war and save the world from our sins.

People might understand greed better than misplaced zeal for freedom. but if Judas betrayed Jesus because he confused his own values with God’s plan, that is also a very serious sin. In fact it seems to me a most appropriate lesson for many today.

This makes me wonder is accepting Jesus already marked upon us or do we allow the hearing of the lord and savior heal us?

The answer is yes, both.

Two Spurgeon devotionals that deal with the subject:

I am reminded of this conversation:

Sometimes I wonder if I’m making things to be way more complexion than it really is. I mean the fact that God choices to interacted with us. Maybe shows that yes he did plan things but maybe not in the same sense has us. Like the Pharaoh’s heart. God could have easily made it be that Pharaoh’s heart could open more but wanting to respect that he couldn’t get through without force harden it. It’s a both give and take. They both exist together.

I hope I’m not being annoying. It’s just this is one of those teachings that is a divined. We know God is outside of time and does plan. But what does that mean

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Don’t worry, Angela – this is a question that many people have wrestled with quite a lot, and will continue to as long as the Bible is around! I tend to agree with you that both free will and predestination exist together, to some degree. But how that pans out in our lives is difficult to understand or explain. It’s worth talking about though, so don’t be afraid to ponder it and ask questions here. :slight_smile:

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This does lead to ask why should terrible things happen? Why are so many things in history have been abused in God’s name. Wouldn’t there be less?

Yes, that’s another difficult question that I don’t think many people can find easy answers for. One explanation is that evil is simply a consequence of living in a material world where human beings have free will. If we were never allowed to experience the consequences of our freedom, we would be more like robots rather than sentient beings who can choose to seek and love God, however imperfectly.

Yea. Sadly many say that means there is no God. Why wouldn’t God stop it.

It is only because of God’s patience through the work of Jesus, wanting to adopt more into his family, that the world still exists at all.

Because of the LORD’s great love we are not consumed, for his compassions never fail.

Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?

Yes, and that’s a valid question. Some have found that an answer is to look at everything as a gift… “all is grace” in a sense. But that doesn’t necessarily make it easier to bear.

I can’t see it that way. How is violence a gift. But why not just take people who wood be in heaven already. Wouldn’t it be easier

This year hasn’t been easy. My grandma has early stage ovarian cancer and my grandpa died. I feel this is a punishment. Why else has god allowed this to happen the same time

Why care for the rest when there is no saving it. Why not just allow to destroy it. Why should God be Patience ? He knows all. Why care for certain things?

I’m so sorry you’re experiencing this loss, Angela. I can see why you would be asking questions like this. Grandparents are special and I’m sure this is hard to bear.

I should have phrased my comment differently – life is a gift. But it doesn’t always feel that way. I believe God is redeeming the world to him, but we are in the “already, not yet” where things aren’t quite right. I join you in wondering why God has not done things differently – why it can’t just be perfect from the beginning.