The above two assertions are contradictory! Harper takes note of the fact that the meaning of πορνεία differed/changed between Paul and the time of Gregory in the fourth century.
And the first assertion falls into what Harper notes is circularity.
I recommend re-reading the conclusion.
The psychological notions may have begun with Freud, but there is good medical evidence that some sexual release (last I read was once every three to four weeks) has actual health benefits.
You don’t find what someone understood about a topic by referencing later writers. The Deuterocanonical books are of far more value given that they are what the NT writers would have been familiar with. (Yes, Philo was a contemporary of Paul, but I know of no evidence that Paul drew on Philo.)
You took that out of context – read on:
but we must recognize what especially this meant in the context of the Greek city under Roman rule,
I note that most of your quotes refer to content in the LXX, which is ironic since you objected to use of the LXX to see “how the authors of the NT understood the word”.
If you read Harper’s article, and add to it the TDNT entry on the matter, you would be aware that you just referenced at least three different standards.
If you read Harper’s article, along with the TDNT entry on the topic, you’d know that there was not a consistent teaching “for thousands of years”.
Having read just about everything Lewis wrote apart from his scholarly works, I’d say the above applies to you: you are doing exactly what he warned against, namely smearing all prior use of a term into the one you use and prefer.
And how it shifts! It’s a fascinating study in how the use and meaning of words change. I like how Harper notes that a metaphorical usage spilled back to become a practical one.
Yes – it’s just bad scholarship to use Clement as indicative of Paul’s use.
BTW, in reading that Philo reference I was reminded of two essays we read in Greek back in grad school. One argued that a boy should be married once old enough to father children, with the case being made “that he not molest the slaves of his father or of his mother”, while noting that “making use” of female slaves of a (male) friend’s household was acceptable. The other was an argument in favor of slavery, that young men should have access to women without honor (which equated to women lacking a “kurios”, a master (a father or husband) so they would leave women of honor alone.
Those two items still seem very alien to me!
I’m really curious about this. I’m not aware of any of the Hebrew “tribe” words being close to the πορνεία words. Do you remember the reference?
I do know of a reference in Tobit, but it uses the Greek word φυλή, which can be translated as “nation” or “people” as well. Plus, given the rest of the verse, it leads me to believe it was talking about Israel as a whole rather than just a single tribe. I’m not sure what Hebrew or Aramaic word that was translated from, or if we even have that manuscript in the original language.
Tobit 4:12 Beware, my son, of every kind of πορνείας. First of all, marry a woman from among the descendants of your ancestors; do not marry a foreign woman, who is not of your father’s tribe [φυλῆς], for we are the descendants of prophets and true-born sons of prophets. The first prophet was Abraham, then Isaac and Jacob, our ancestors of old. Remember, my son, that these all took wives from among their kindred. They were blessed in their children, and their posterity will inherit the land.
I wish! Both references and Hebrew vocabulary are slipping from my memory at an alarming rate lately (my doctor suggests as a result of my encounter with COVID and the accompanying “brain fog”). I find myself staring at Hebrew words and not even recognizing the stem more often than not these days.
IIRC from the LXX, it’s used for “family”, “clan”, “tribe”, or “people”, in decreasing levels of blood relations, with the third not necessarily indicating blood relationship but at the least a shared ruler. Of these the use in Tobit is probably “family” or “clan” given the example “took wives from among their kindred”.
Of course I am. The crux of the issue is what the original Christians actually believed about sex, which you are on record as opposing (per your website). Your attempt to invalidate Christian teaching by obscuring the definition of “porneia” is a strategy, not an objective.
It’s unnecessary to speculate on what they believed when they left a clear record, as I already cited. We know exactly what early Christians and Jews believed about sex from Philo, Josephus, Paul, and Clement. Name one single Christian or Jewish author from 1000 BC to 1000 AD who advocated for sexual libertinism (which you publicly advocate, just not here). Without it, your “evidence” doesn’t measure up.
Why are you invoking the Apocrypha???
You want to “keep this respectful,” as do I, but really? You’re claiming you speak with the authority of the Holy Spirit? You imagine that you are the first person in 2000 years of Church history to get it right - even though you are further removed both temporally and culturally (and educationally, but why go there?) from every preceding generation? Is your opinion of the Holy Spirit so low, that He was incapable of enlightening people before Glenn Farell came to clear it all up? I see evidence of spirits at work, just not the Holy one.
More from Kyle Harper, this from his more exhaustive and recent work From Shame to Sin. Emphasis added, in all cases.
In Philo’s voluminous commentaries on sexual propriety, porneia never becomes a central term. [meaning he didn’t use that particular word very much]
The idea of “fornication” was in the air of the Jewish communities strewn across the Mediterranean, but it was not a dominant element in their sexual outlook. In other words, fornication was not predestined to become the presiding term of Christian sexual morality. But in the middle decades of the first century, as missionaries poured out of Palestine with the message that the Jewish messiah had come as a universal savior, “fornication” was ready to serve as a shorthand for the culture of sexual indulgence that followers of the new cult were being asked to leave behind. In the first decades of the Christian mission, no single form of sinful sexual behavior stuck to the term with any greater force than others. In the texts that would become part of the Christian canon, porneia still means, variously, incest, exogamy, even idolatry. Nowhere is this extreme breadth and pliability of the word’s meaning clearer than in the Apostolic Decree, the code of conduct laid down at the Council of Jerusalem to impose minimal standards of purity on gentile converts. The inclusion of porneia on the short list-the very short list-of moral imperatives signals the uncanny power of the term to condense a whole bundle of expectations about the use of the body.
The inclusion of porneia in the Apostolic Decree is a signal that the word’s adoption by Paul in First Corinthians was not circumstantial. The word was already a slogan of moral rectitude in Christian circles. But it is through the epistolary conversations between Paul and his eclectic assemblies of messianic believers that we watch the early and decisive development of the term.
Paul was drawn into the topic of sexual comportment by a scandal within his Corinthian community that had shaken the small circle of the faithful. A man was living with his father’s wife, “a kind of porneia that is not found even among pagans.” A man had begun to cohabit with his stepmother, probably widowed. The two may not have been so far apart in age. Such scenarios were the material for much ribald comedy in Greek and Roman cultures. For Paul, the relationship was intolerable, and he sternly reminded the Corinthians, “I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with fornicators.” The Christian community, an evangelical minority steeled for the end times, could not abide such impurity. As for Philo, so for Paul, sexual morality was a presumptive requirement of communal belonging.”
Unlike some people here, I have an active life and do not have unlimited time to argue with people online. I don’t mind a challenge, and I try to seek out the best arguments from the opposing side. There are people who can never walk away from an argument; I’m not one of them. I may or may not continue in this particular discourse.
In this thread, you have given absolutely zero evidence that early Jews and Christians held any view other than chastity before marriage, and faithfulness in marriage.
I’m quite prepared to debate this publicly, if you like.
If your personal attacks don’t stop, this will be my last response to you.
Instigator? Everything I have posted here has been a response to someone else. And I already said that I do not claim to be a scholar. But thank you for elevating me to “expert.”
The title and original purpose of this post was addressing the definition of porneia. While there is certainly a sexual component to it, I believe the definition of porneia is more about the abandonment of God, rather than the means to which that abandonment is accomplished. Therefore, the crux of the issue is not about the early Jewish or Christian sexual culture.
Paul’s goal was not to regulate behavior and present rules. He was clear about that when he declared all things clean as long as they are done with a pure heart and conscience. His goal was pure hearts. Therefore, a closer look at anything that is perceived to be a rule from him is warranted.
I don’t personally approve of, condone, condemn, or oppose any specific sex act in any of my works. What I DO say is that the Bible is not condemning what we think it is condemning. My work is not something you can skim and come away with the full picture, just like someone can’t take a single verse out of the gospel of John and know what the book is about.
I’m not attempting to invalidate Christian teaching. I am attempting to understand the teachings of specific early Christians.
I am not speculating. I am researching. Even people at the time of Paul’s writings twisted his words (2 Peter 3:16). Are they clear to you to today, but not to the recipients of the letters?
I disagree, but it doesn’t matter. I want to know what Paul meant when he used the word porneia, because Paul was not a rule-giver, and how we translate it today is a rule.
Again, I do not publicly advocate any sexual belief system. I research and draw conclusions on what the Bible does and does not say. I have never made a claim that any Jewish or Christian author advocated for sexual libertinism.
Because it’s part of the LXX, and you did too. You referenced Sirach and the Testaments.
I am not alone in my beliefs. I’m not sure where you get your ideas about what I imagine.
Yet you did go there, sir. Can you tell me why this matters? We are not discussing who has the best MD or MBA.
No.
And I’ll assume that second “n” in Glen is a typo.
Based on what? Opinions about what the Bible says about sex?
If you only knew what I am missing just to provide a respectful response to you…
That’s because I am not trying to prove that early Jews and Christians held any view other than chastity before marriage, and faithfulness in marriage. I feel like I have said that already. In fact, I would probably agree with you on that.
Again, If your personal attacks and disrespectful banter don’t stop, this will be my last response to you.
I found a good article you may want to read. Here’s a quote that directly addresses this:
Without intellectual humility and open-minded thinking, it’s tempting to think our interpretations are infallible and charge those who disagree with us of “rejecting God’s Word.” I know because I’ve seen it. We all have. It’s fundamentally dishonest and rooted in intellectual pride.
- Steven Willing
It is a good article. But I would like to point out that each of these should involve balancing between extremes.
There is a balance between arrogance and being wishy washy (not standing up for what is right)
The counterbalance to seeking wisdom is taking action and doing good.
1 Cor 13:7 says love believes all things. So there is balance between trust and caution.
There is a balance between work and play.
There is a balance between learning from others and discernment.
Some people also go too far against emotions. To be sure the heart can be deceitful, but most of the time it is good to go with what your heart tells you.
Jesus both endorses scripture and warns against going too far with scripture (John 5:39).
Tradition can represent what has been tested longest, and it can also represent the perpetuation of error.
This is where I start to get really uncomfortable with making any absolute statements about a lot of Christian ethics. There is so much that original Christians would have believed about so many topics that we would consider incorrect today (this site exists for this reason) that it’s hard to be certain that we are the ones that are getting right.
This is why I’m so focused on inclusion - any of us could be wrong, I’d rather invite everyone in and be wrong about that, then to exclude someone and be wrong about THAT.
Or as the Apostle put it, “If your heart condemns you…”
Just as He endorses the Torah yet occasionally deliberately violates the rules.
This is my problem with the idea of “holy tradition”: from what I see, every time there’s been a significant church split, one or both sides has added some error to their tradition. This leaves me untrustful of any tradition that has appeared since the Council of Chalcedon.
Mixing categories, there – there’s a big difference between objective knowledge and morals.
Speaking of morals, on this topic, I once heard a preacher say that if you can see your activity as glorifying God, go for it – while I knew two high school guys in that church who would happily argue that sex with multiple partners glorified God.
Which goes to show that even principles can be abused.
I am talking about disagreeing with ancient Christian morals.
But if we’re talking about knowledge, I would say that a lot of their morals I disagree with came from their lack of knowledge so there is some connection.
I think it’s fine to wonder if my actions glorify God but again that implies that anyone’s idea of what glorifies God is the most correct one. I also think there is plenty of stuff we do that doesn’t have any relevance to the glory we give to God. I feel that I am just making a guess (based on traditional modern American Evangelical views of scripture) to say that sex with multiple partners means something to God. I am more sure that how I treat those partners or the circumstances around the sex is more relevant than whether or not it’s happening.
The patriarchal societies where the Hebrew Bible was written were polygamous: a wealthy man could have several wifes and concubines (polygyny), and there were new marriages after a divorce (serial polygamy). Although the biblical scriptures tell this and there were even rules of how to act in such a society, it does not mean that the practices were the will of God. We know that from what Jesus told about the union of man and woman.
How we treat our partners matters. That does not exclude that sex between two persons matters. We know that from what the biblical scriptures tell, including the teachings of Jesus and Paul.
I appreciate this understanding of scripture but I just don’t share it anymore. I don’t think that Paul (or even Jesus) had enough information about biology to know how to frame their ethics surrounding sexuality correctly.
On a Christian web site, it will probably be a non-starter to suggest that about Jesus in any matter of ethics or relationships.
But that said, I guess we all have our current areas where we live as if we knew better, not just about sex, but about violence too. We have ways of harboring protected corners to house our favored idols. And pretty soon it has migrated from its inconspicuous corner to being the protected shrine in the middle of the room.