Pithy quotes from our current reading which give us pause to reflect

Thanks from me too. I’ve got my copy and have just read the preface and the first section from which the book’s title comes. I like this guy and how he writes. Definitely relevant to me though Christian roots were so stunted next to what he describes. There is really no comparison but it gives me much more insight into what tgat experience must be like. I get that even for one who leaves that sure supporting me environment there can be no clean break and never looking back unless you become very damaged, more damaged than those who express no regrets and scoff that they didn’t do it sooner.

Anyhow wanting to know more of his story I googled him and found a podcast interview by a woman with a similar background and trajectory. Of course, given a transcript is available, I haven’t yet heard their voices but will do so. Here is a hopefully not too glaringly long snippet. I begin where with Ms Tippet is saying:

Ms. Tippett: I’ve heard and read a lot of stories about the interesting ways religion and spirituality get communicated to us as children. I have to say, Christian, that your story, of all of them that I’ve heard all these years, is the most familiar to me: growing up absolutely immersed in this religious universe, which meant everything.

Mr. Wiman: Right.

Ms. Tippett: But then, when I left that place — and like you, I went far, far away — the religious piece stopped to make sense, as well, because it was the whole package.

Mr. Wiman: I think, for me, it was a big loss. I didn’t realize exactly how large a loss, for years, because I just — like so many people — dispensed with it and became an agnostic or whatever you want to call it. But I wonder; I’ve got little kids now, and I do think about what I should teach them and how I should teach them, in terms of their spiritual lives, because I greatly value the way I was raised, which was completely immersed in that culture.

Ms. Tippett: Did you go to church twice on Sunday, and Wednesday night?

Mr. Wiman: Yep, yep; sometimes, even more. And we had to learn Bible verses and say them over the meals.

Ms. Tippett: And the hymns, the singing.

Mr. Wiman: We knew the hymns and had the singing. And there was no possibility of puncture to that world. I never met anybody who didn’t believe, until I went off to college. Never met a soul. And I value the coherence of it, and I value the intensity of it and the momentum that it’s given my life. But it’s also created all kinds of difficulties, as I’m sure you know.

Ms. Tippett: I think there are a lot of people like us, though, in this country, and especially in, I don’t know, what we call the Bible Belt. But I’m not sure — when you get outside the Bible Belt, I’m not sure it’s a narrative people recognize.

Mr. Wiman: I think that’s true. I have discovered that there is an enormous number of people in this country who are — they have some kind of religious language that they’re just unhappy with. It doesn’t accord with their feelings of the sacred or their feelings of what spirituality means, and they’re casting about for some new way of believing. And yet, you can’t just jettison everything that you have.

I definitely feel they are talking to me too. I think every believer has doubts and every non believes is something.

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Mark, I thought you might like this book, while I was regluing dismembered books today, and listening. i’m looking forward to hearing more of your impressions.

My first exposure to Wiman was when I had heard this podcast with Mako Fujimura back a few covid years ago. It’s been quite a while since I listened to it, so there might be some overlap with the one you linked, but I remember liking it a lot and then downloading all of Wiman’s books that are in my Bookshare subscription.
I shared somewhere up this thread one of his poems……oh, here it is:

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Oh I do remember how much you liked that book. Naturally I’d like the one about the doubts and doubters. Somehow so much more relatable.

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This one does a good job, I think, of demonstrating to those with little or no doubt, an unimagined reality that others live with all the time. It can be a lesson in empathy, if nothing else. Even though it’s not my own experience, I know it is the experience of friends and acquaintances, whom I love and respect. I take their account of their experiences seriously and attempt to handle those carefully, because they are real.
God forbid, and my friends and acquaintances, too, that I be like Job’s friends.

In spite of the theme of unbelief, this line in particular spoke/speaks to me as a believer:

Even believers need space to deal with what to “the folks back home” might look like unbelief. We need space to consider, sit with, breathe with, chew on things we had been unaware of before. And we will need that space over and over, if we’re out and about in the world of ideas. The closet, where no foreign idea is allowed to enter or be examined, is stifling, withering.
I believe that engaging in this way is a serious business. And should be handled well. Should be respected. But not avoided.

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???

I may need to buy a clue please. Job had friends? Probably not as many after they saw how far out of favor he’d fallen with the big Guy I’m guessing.

Like our hero here no doubt needed his first year college when his roommate or whoever casually dropped how none of the most important thing in his and his whole family and community back home was even on his radar. God? Who dat?

Boy makes me cringe to think of the casual way I dropped where I was at about religion to buy myself some breathing space in my big all-in to church family. Hopefully I’ll be a little more comfortable in my own skin and secure enough not to need to push so hard next time. But if any of them tells me they must share their conversion experience and launch right into a 2 hour monologue I’ll just run out the door screaming as politely as I can.

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Krista Tippett talked with Jim Stump on the Language of God podcast, too. I enjoy her on NPR with her podcast, “On Being,” this is the one).
She is always kind, curious and respectful.
Thanks.
Krista Tippett | Life Together - Podcast Episode - BioLogos

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“With friends like these, who needs enemies?”

He had 3 long-winded friends: Eliphaz, Bildad and Zophar. Once the background of Job’s situation is given in the book, his friends show up to “comfort” him. For a week they sit in silent, aparent, solidarity with their friend. The best gift. After the week, Job lays out his side of the story, knowing nothing of God’s. The next 30+ chapters comprise a theological argument between Job and each of his long-winded friends. In good televangelist style they explain to Job that he must have sinned to be in such a condition of disfavor with God. Finally, God addresses Job but gives him no explanation for the state of his life.

So, “God forbid that I be like Job’s friends,” means I never want to seek causes for suffering that I can blame on the sufferer. Honestly, I’ve always wondered why Job is such a favorite to burden sufferers with.

What I know of your situation is different from what I had in mind. So, it’s good to be reminded that there is a wider variety of experience that what I had in mind.
The seriousness I was thinking of is in regard to people who are wrestling with faith and different perspectives, rather than with their family or community over faith. I can imagine that being “that brother” was/is pretty hard, too.
If two hour monologues are the norm in your family, I’d be finding the door with you.

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This one got my attention today:

“The resemblance between Heisenberg’s tables of data, with no overall picture, and Hume’s simple impressions, with no objects or causality, is uncanny.”

Paul Strathern, Hume in 90 Minutes

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From Iain McGilchrist’s new (1 year since publishing) book, The Matter With Things:

In The Matter With Things I search out what it is we have lost sight of, all that is there for us to see, if only we were not blinded to it: an inexhaustibly, truly wondrous, creative, living universe, not a meaningless, moribund mechanism. By bringing to bear up-to-the-minute neuropsychology, physics and philosophy, I show not only that these are in no way in conflict with one another, but that they all lead us, time and again, to the same insights. And that this is not in opposition to, but rather corroborates, the wisdom of the great spiritual traditions across the world.

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That is quite a project!

It’s better to be childlike before God. If ‘they all’ don’t lead us to God then they are woefully remiss.


         Joy & Strength

It would be even more ambitious if it had to show that science, philosophy and psychology all point to the birth of Jesus. But I’m glad that at least some Christians can see the value of thinking that integrates science and philosophy in a worldview that includes the sacred. When more Christians can be mature enough to claim their doctrinal beliefs with the same humility with which they acknowledge their fallen nature it will be a benefit to Christian flourishing which the endless polemics will never allow.

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  M&E (Click/tap image for better resolution, or follow the link.)

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Edited to alert @beaglelady that I think these quotes relate to that preserving mystery in orthoxy thread you’ve been posting in, and @Kendel as I think it relates to some of what we’ve been posting in the Ard Louis thread.

I got this in my email today. Both quotes come from a blogger (if that is the right term) who posts daily but which I choose to receive once a week by email. She goes by “the marginaliean”, no caps being her choice. Perhaps another we Cummings fan? See, I’m not the only weirdo who thinks as I do.

Whatever inspiration is,” the Polish poet Wisława Szymborska observed in her superb Nobel Prize acceptance speech, “it’s born from a continuous ‘I don’t know.’” And yet, with our reflex for teleological thinking — that childish grab at “I know!” — we habitually cut ourselves off from the mystery that houses the most creative, and therefore the most vulnerable and alive, part of our own souls…”

And a longer quote with links back to the web page from whence it came, which I did not enclose in a quote but it comprises the rest of this post. So, if you’re interested, you can follow a link back to its source if interested:

In a passage evocative of Nathaniel Hawthorne’s contour of the edges of consciousness, he considers that “impossible” place where transcendence lives — “a semi-conscious place, a twilight place, a distracted place, a place of surrender” — the place where his dead son also lives, and the life-deep sorrow of the loss, and the portal to beauty the loss unlatched in his creative spirit:

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There is another place that can be summoned through practice that is not the imagination, but more a secondary positioning of your mind with regard to spiritual matters… It is a kind of liminal state of awareness, before dreaming, before imagining, that is connected to the spirit itself. It is an “impossible realm” where glimpses of the preternatural essence of things find their voice. Arthur lives there. Inside that space, it feels a relief to trust in certain glimpses of something else, something other, something beyond.

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One of Arthur Rackham’s rare 1917 illustrations for the fairy tales of the Brothers Grimm. (Available as a print.)

That otherness, that beyondness, is what we commonly call mystery — the realm of experience inaccessible to our analytical minds, unaccountable by reason, and yet a stratum of reality we touch beyond doubt in those rare transcendent moments, as palpable as a lover’s hand, as alive as prayer.

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Mark, this is a hard one for me. I’ve looked back over the Ard Louis thread, and in myself, I don’t see (at least in any of my posts) the kind of thinking, or rather intuitive knowing, that is described by marginalian’s blog post. (I do love her name, though.)

For example, this quote:

While, I find it a beautiful, enticing description, it doesn’t describe my experiences of intuition at all.
Likewise, this is beyond my comprehension:

I have always felt myself to be the least spiritual Christian in the room, who, if people really knew the truth about me, would be perceived as stunted, arrested in my spiritual development, deficient. Spiritual practice (prayer) is hard, deliberate work for me. Brother Lawrence’s “Practicing the Presence of God” only gives me a guilt trip.

However in my experience this does happen:

but not as mystery but in the back of my mind, when I’ve directed my self and my activity to other things. But it’s hard for me to understand these things as “transcendent moments.” They’re moments, when the deliberation is resting, and the hands are busy. The mind wanders fairly undirectedly. The other day, for example, I was listening to the McGilchrist video you sent, and he said something the reminded me about “…the sum of the parts.” and then he said the maxim. This reminded me of another time I had thought of it in regard to you. The cummings poem.
So a disorganized tangle of found objects is pulled out for corners of my mind, and arranged in a way that makes sense to me. And you, when I told you.

None of this strikes me as mystery or transcendent.

And maybe I have entirely missed your point. ; )

Well it was more in the hopes of illuminating my position in those conversations. Definitely didn’t mean to suggest you’d claimed any of that territory. Definitely not. But honestly I’m not as spiritual as I may come off with these, the McGilchrist stuff and other things I share. To my mind I’m getting a glimmer of insight into processes which fit seamlessly into the natural world but help shed light on who we are who - along with God- have also arisen as part of the great whatever-this-is but don’t (from our perspective) seem to fit.

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That is offensive to Christians, and Jews, and Muslims, or should be. Did you look up aseity?

Correction. I’m an avowed non Christian who attaches different meaning to the sacred and “God” than Christians do. I don’t pretend to know all about what it is that drives the use of these words. I don’t know that my understanding is factually true. I deny that anyone can know anything about the sacred in an objective, factual way. That is above all of our pay grade although I recognize that you deny that and you are not alone in that opinion. Not my problem but I don’t envy anyone their cocky, unwarranted certainty.

Christianity is a traditional practice which inserts a healthy respect for the sacred into the culture. I appreciate and support that. I don’t think religion is backward, ignorant or detrimental (though the way it gets elaborated in practice can be). Religion doesn’t hold people back, it holds them up. But Christianity didn’t invent that and doesn’t hold the patent. People have long and widely intuited our dual nature and the centrality of something greater than the power of our rational minds - as useful as those have been. We should all support every way people find that serves that function in their lives.

This makes more sense than my initial reading of your post. Thanks!

I did find this bit particularly noteworthy:

I’ve long blamed my status as Oldest Child on my irrational feeling that I was responsible to have or be able to figure out all the answers to “important” questions, as well as my deep aversion seeking advice, which was also associated with guilt. That awful voice: “Are you too stupid not to figure this out for yourself? You aren’t doing your job!”
It too a few decades to realize that that voice was lying. And then a few more decades to start asking ANY questions at all. I’ve worked hard to teach my girls that “I don’t know,” is the best/only answer to questions, when it’s true. It’s been freeing to learn to say it myself. And a bit terrifying.

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You could have made a good - well standard issue, at least - man. Better to die in some dead end slit canyon than to ask a passerby for help. It’s in our manual.

Regarding answers to important questions I’ve always felt anyone can access those but not by scrambling something together. For some things you can look it up, something you are better at than I obviously. But patience, honesty and humility as a siege tactic is another way to acquire those answers. Wisdom we don’t own can open the gates if we only remain focused and resolute long enough; I’m quite sure of that.

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