Pharaoh’s Magicians:Evolution, The Bible, and Modern Gnosticism

The thing is, Kelli, that you do need to make sure that your facts are straight, and you do need to recognise that we live in the Real World. Yes, we have to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord, but we have to work out that grace and knowledge in our workplaces, in our schools, and in our communities.

Science isn’t just something “secular” that you can dismiss as untrustworthy because it challenges your worldview. It is a set of essential skills and competences that many of us need to understand and apply correctly in order to do our jobs properly. Passive-aggressive or hostile attitudes to science have effects far beyond just attacking “evolutionism”; they undermine our ability to function properly in the workplace, to keep our loved ones safe, to fact-check what we are being told and to hold people accountable for the integrity and factual accuracy of their claims. I’ve seen far too many Christians under-performing in their careers, falling for the most blatant falsehoods, making crazy decisions that they’ve later regretted, or even being led astray altogether, because bad attitudes to science had undermined their ability to think critically and to test everything as the Bible commands us to do. (1 Thessalonians 5:21; 1 John 4:1). As Hosea 4:6 says, “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.”

I’ll be honest here: I don’t actually care how old the earth is, or who or what did or didn’t evolve from what, or whether Adam and Eve were real historical people or some kind of theological archetype. Theologically, I consider such debates to be something of a distraction because the Bible is first and foremost about how we behave in the here and now, rather than whether or not we have someone way back at the dawn of creation to pass the buck to. But honesty, factual accuracy, scientific literacy and good critical thinking skills are of vital importance. If you’re undermining them, you’re just setting your fellow Christians up for a fall.

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A popular post! I stay away from the computer a half day, and already this many posts!
@Kelli, it is difficult to tell if you advocate all that you posted in the lengthy forward you pasted in, but for discussion purposes will assume you do. In it, there are quite a few words that mean something different in a scientific discussion, or are wrongly used, perhaps in the straw man the author has constructed in his alternate reality/

Only to a religious outsider, not to one in science. To those in science, it is a theory. And theories are falsifiable constructs made to best explain the observed data. If a better one comes along, it will become accepted and the old one discarded, unlike cult-like religious positions, of which it has been said by some that no amount of evidence could make them change their mind.

“Proof” and “proven” is used in science pretty much only in math, in a narrow way. While it may be used carelessly or colloquially at time, science pretty much is open to any concept being disproven. Granted, the evidence may be so weighty supporting a position that it would be very hard to overturn, as but it could be.

“Belief” is another misused word. One does not believe theories. They accept them as the most likely explanation and description of whatever is being addressed, but do not believe in same sense as religious belief in things unseen.

You would think the author would know better. By capitalizing Gnosticism, he identifies it as being part of the defined Gnostic movement of the early church. Sort of like the difference in catholic and Catholic. Goggle and read a bit of what Gnosticism is. A brief excerpt from Wikipedia:

Gnosticism (from Ancient Greek: γνωστικός, romanized: gnōstikós , Koine Greek: [ɣnostiˈkos], ‘having knowledge’) is a collection of religious ideas and systems which coalesced in the late 1st century AD among Jewish and early Christian sects.[1] These various groups emphasised personal spiritual knowledge ( gnosis ) above the orthodox teachings, traditions, and authority of religious institutions. Viewing material existence as flawed or evil, Gnostic cosmogony generally presents a distinction between a supreme, hidden God and a malevolent lesser divinity (sometimes associated with the Yahweh of the Old Testament)[2] who is responsible for creating the material universe.[3]

Whoa! Sounds for like some religious movements I know, but not evolutionary theory. Special knowledge, viewing material existence as flawed. Makes you wonder.

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Many of those falls are into conspiracism and political tribalism. “Christian nationalism” is an oxymoron.

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Precisely. What everyone needs to understand is that there is such a thing as objective reality, facts are not opinions and they are not worldviews, and we do have tools such as measurement, mathematics and observation to differentiate between what is real and what isn’t. When I see postmodern denials of objective reality, or dismissing well established facts as if they were mere opinions or worldviews, that has more in common with gnosticism than scientific theories such as evolution.

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Then it logically follows that gravity is a religion, if you understand the evidence.

Many here have devoted years of study to their faith also and don’t see the distinction you seem to make about “two different kinds of faith.” And people are free to listen or not as they choose. But in the midst of a discussion, asking someone to invest that amount of time is kind of a conversation stopper, especially since you could just summarize the information yourself. Either way, I am off topic here and others are discussing the more pertinent issues above.

So was Jesus wrong then (or perhaps the gospel writers mis-reporting what he said) when he told the woman (in the verse Laura referenced for you) “Daughter, your faith has made you well, go, and be healed …”? In other places too, Jesus even expresses delighted amazement at the persistent faith of some (the Caananite woman or the Roman Centurion). Those are curious responses if he could have more truthfully told them instead: “the faith I just gave you has made you well.”

At one level, I agree with you. Everything ultimately comes from God. Including our brains, and the faith that those minds may come to host. But a straightforward reading of the gospels shows Christ commending some for their faith.

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Point to a transcription and you might have more takers. Reading is much faster than watching a video.

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What do you mean? A person is either born again by the Spirit of God or she or he is still under the sin nature.

Exactly, that is what is being said. :+1:t2:
You think we can do things in our human without His Spirit in us that glorifies God? No.
The Lord is only pleased on what He does.

This should answer regarding the faith without a transcribe of the study of Mark 5:34

faith (pistis)=persuasion and influence of God’s Spirit is Biblical faith

Heb 12:2, Jesus Christ is the source, author, finisher of faith

Gal 5:22, Faith is produced by the Holy Spirit

Jam 2:14, Faith is the work/activity of God’s Spirit

1Cor 12:9, Faith is given by the Holy Spirit

Acts 14:9,10, Faith was given to the man

Rom 10:17, God’s chosen way of expressing/ministering His faith

Rom 12:3, We live by the faith measured out to us by God

Mt 9:29, The word ‘your’ is a personal pronoun, not a reflexive pronoun. A reflexive pronoun would be used of the person producing and applying his own faith. ‘your’ is a personal pronoun showing possession. ‘Let it be according to the faith that you possess.’ In other words, the faith has been given to him. He now possesses it. (Example: Acts 14:27, Paul saw the man had faith in order to be healed.) It’s not the faith that he produced but the faith that he possessed.

Heb 11:1 Description of what faith does…not a definition. Faith is the basis of things hoped for. Whenever I am convicted, it’s because of the faith, God’s Spirit. It’s not something I choose to believe. It’s something I’m persuaded by.

Heb 11:7 Noah built the ark according to God’s persuasion/faith and instruction.

Faith is the presence and activity of the Holy Spirit in a person’s life. It is not something I produce.

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And more on the subject of the Lord’s faith:

Galatians 5:22

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, FAITH,(emphasis mine)

Galatians 5:22 that faith is a fruit of the Spirit of God.

II Peter 3:18 “Grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” We are to grow in the grace and knowledge of him. But what makes it interesting is that the Bible, especially I Corinthians 2:9-12 tells us that only the Spirit of God knows the things of God and only the Spirit of God can reveal the knowledge of God to somebody. It is not a human ability. God’s Spirit has to reveal the knowledge of God. And the person who teaches the knowledge of God must do so under the influence and inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Pastor Bill Klein

I Corinthians 12:9 faith is given by the Holy Spirit.

Verse 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; Again he’s emphasizing the one Spirit does all of these things and notice that faith is given to people by the Holy Spirit.

Hebrews 12:2 Jesus Christ is the author of faith.

In verse 2 when it says Looking unto Jesus he then gives the identity of Jesus.

the author and finisher of our faith; notice the word ‘our’ is in italics. It is not in the Greek text. It is the word ‘the’. Another one of those instances where they said Jesus is the author and finisher of the faith. Well we can’t have that. It has got to be our faith. No He’s the author and finisher. He starts faith. He’s the author of it. It comes from Him. And He brings it to its completion.

Revelation 2:13

I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan’s seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied MY FAITH, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Whose faith is it? It is the Lord’s Faith.

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The Ultimate Word of God is Jesus Christ the Logos.

The author has no idea what Gnosticism is. Gnosticism values the “spiritual” over the physical, more like YEC than evolution. It also claims that salvation is based on secret spiritual “knowledge,” similar to evangelical ideology, not openly available scientific information.

Depending how you define “reptile”: cladistically or as a grade. Cladistic Reptilia includes
extinct diapsids, all modern reptiles, Parareptilia, and birds, but not diadectimorphs or basal synapsids.

I suspected as much. I think I’ll be fine sticking with how Jesus said it instead.

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Sorry but a list of scriptures that I have read and studied many times does nothing to support your position. Sometimes I get the impression you don’t believe we have ever read the NT.

You mentioned a transcription so I assumed one was available. There are many videos that do provide a transcript. If none was available I certainly didn’t expect you to type one out.

And not to be outdone, here is a cut and paste from Vine’s Expository Dictionary of the NT Words located here emphasis mine.

And don’t forget Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

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What I mean is that teaching falsehood and misinformation is a breach of trust, Kelli. If you are not getting your facts straight, you are teaching falsehood and misinformation. And undermining people’s ability to check whether you are getting your facts straight or not is even more of a breach of trust than ever.

Being born again of the Spirit of God is not a licence to behave however you like. Teaching falsehood and misinformation is still sin.

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Even if it is in ignorance and unintentional.
 

Since @Shannon & @Kelli are such mature Christians, they should be able to recite Psalm 19:12 without having to look it up.

This is false witness

That Freudian slip tells me that you aren’t so confident in your positions yourself.

Also, what do those links have to do with this “evolutionary Gnosticism” you’re clutching pearls over? Does evolution say anything about re-attaining lost divinity or multiple emanations from the Monad? Last time I checked it was a theory of the development of life on Earth.