That was one objection, not the only one.
This is a matter of degree.
How consistent are you in your desire to protect people? Why stop at limiting drinking and driving? Why not return to prohibition of all alcohol consumption? Why not require all vehicles to have a maximum speed limit of 35 mph? Such laws would lower highway deaths and domestic violence.
Or can reasonable people differ on the level of freedom loss a government can force on its people?
It also buys us time to develop vaccines and explore drugs for treament.
2 Likes
This might be a good time to review the case of âTyphoid Mary,â the asymptomatic carrier of typhoid. She was resonsible for spreading illness and even death to many because she worked as a cook. Even when it was explained to her that that she was the cause of the outbreaks, she refused change professions,. Finally, she was quarantined against her will. As always there were complicating factors.
This fascinating video is less than 20 minutes long. Typhoid Mary: The Bringer of Disease and Death
1 Like
That is a good example of quarantineâ isolating people known to be sick.
That is very different from the forced house arrest of well people.
I havenât heard anyone arguing that people known to be sick should be wandering the streets and frequenting the shops.
This conversation just leaves me speechless. All I really can say is this:
Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others. In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to deathâ
even death on a cross!
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
4 Likes
Because it doesnât work.
Because the cost in wasted time is too high. What is the cost of putting on a mask?
Absolutely. If they are using reason to come to their conclusions, however, they should be able to state what those reasons are.
8 Likes
Iâm not sure if this really belongs here but I was just responding to a Fb friend who is an anti-vaxer and anti-face mask. She first made a post suggesting the money hospitals can charge for ventilating a patient with COVID to explain why ventilators were being used. Most of my friends do not agree with her anymore than I do but in response to another friendâs challenge to suggest an alternative to intubating a patient in danger of dying from oxygen deprivation, she posted this article which recommends something called a high flow nasal cannula. Of course she managed to package its use with a treatment that âincludes hydroxychloroquine, high-dose vitamin C, zinc, atorvastatin and steroidsâ - none of which are mentioned in the article.
I was wondering if anyone on these boards with medical experience - @Randy, @glipsnort, @jpm or⌠- was familiar enough with this device to know if the nasal cannula device is a promising alternative to ventilators?
1 Like
My knowledge is limited, but usually patients are intubation only after passive oxygen fails and oxygen levels are falling to the area leading to death. I am sure there are a lot of approaches but does not seem like anything novel. You can only get a
Limited amount of oxygen through a nasal cannula, and ulceration and cracking of the nasal mucosa is a problem. I think the current thought is to delay intubation as long as possible but that is all heresay and good data is still scarce.
2 Likes
I see high flow nasal oxygen is already the standard in the NIH protocol, so no real change. If you go back this link, it is sort of interesting, especially in the whatâs new section. It is updated daily as things come to light, but no pandemic panacea yet.
3 Likes
Forcing people to wear masks may not work either.
The cost of requiring masks is a loss of freedom, and giving up freedoms is an incremental movement towards slavery.
Perhaps you simply cannot see the reasoning of others and therefore deny the existence of the reasoning.
Jay, you arenât quite speechless.
I agree with what you wrote, but I donât find it relevant to the topic.
Those who seek to protect the freedoms we enjoy and donât want to lose them for themselves or future generations often view themselves as serving others. You may not agree with them, but that does not make them wrong.
Catch me if I am wrong but this sounds confusing to me.
Are you saying that, for example, a surgeon who wears a mask to protect his patients intraoperatively is on the road to slavery? Because it sounds like the same principle to me. Isnât he forced to do something for his patient"s safety, and gives up his right willingly?
Freedom is not the issue if someoneâs health is at risk. I think freedom is a distraction from the issue.
A surgeon who cried freedom to avoid the mask would be selfish. Letâs talk about health, but freedom is a non issue, I am sure you would agree, if your neighbor suffers and you could help him by wearing a mask.
I donât understand.
Thanks.
7 Likes
By this reasoning, speed limits and drunk driving laws are also movement towards slavery.
âStop obeying the speed limits, you sheeple! Throw off your chains and drive 120 mph in your neighborhood! Then you will be living in true freedom as God desires you to!â
Not.
Grace and peace,
Chris
5 Likes
Now it is my turn to be speechless. If you never want to loose any freedoms I suggestion you donât get married, donât have kids, quit your job, and move to an uninhabited island.
Humans only ever enjoy conditional freedom since
relationships (family, friendship, employment, and citizenship) always require one to sacrifice a measure of freedom. Sometimes willingly, sometimes unwillingly; such are the conditions of human interaction.
It doesnât necessarily make them right either.
5 Likes
Seriously?
Oh well.
You are taking about choices, not government mandates.
If you think about it, you may see the difference.
No Iâm at talk about both:
When one has children one must often choose to give up freedoms to care for them. However, one is also mandated by the state to relinquish certain freedoms or face the consequences. For example, oneâs freedom of movement as a parent is forcibly restricted by the state. My wife and I are not free to move around whenever and wherever we like if it means leaving our 3 and 6 year old at home alone. In fact nearly every freedom as a parent is forcibly restricted by the state if exercising that freedom puts oneâs children in harms way. I could choice to exercise those freedoms anyway, but I might find them further restricted forcibly by the state when I am arrested by the authorities!
Such is the condition of parent-child human interactions in the Western World. I donât know many (any?) people who would say that the state passing these laws and enforcing them is an incremental step towards slavery.
I could go onâŚ
5 Likes
I think Randyâs question here is valid and would be interested in a serious answer rather than a dismissive one.
Honestly, I am sympathetic to conservative concerns about freedoms during this pandemic. I think there are a few politicians who have overstepped their bounds. But this case you are trying to make for mandated face masks being a step towards slavery is specious to me.
10 Likes
But thatâs just itâwe donât know who might be an asymptomatic carrier yet can infect others. Thatâs the reason for the quarantine!!! Meanwhile, US deaths near 100,000. 100,000!!
2 Likes