The idea that the universe as a whole is conscious and self aware or that everything in the universe is conscious and self aware .
There are variations on the concept, and degrees , but the gist is generally the same .
I’m not completely sold on the idea , but I find it intriguing, and see where it might be shoe horned into Christian concepts .
Has anyone else explored this topic personally?
Do you see “the search icon” in the upper right hand corner ? Click on it and enter panpsychism and you’ll get two choices, “all instances of that word in this forum” and “all instances in this thread”. There are 29 instances of that word in the whole forum:
Aye. It’s complete and utter fantasy. And even Asimov appeared to flirt with it.
At the very least, since consciousness and awareness is about information processing, the time scale for the universe as a whole must be vastly longer and far more simplistic. Frankly even viruses look far far more sophisticated by comparison.
So yeah… mostly fantasy would be an understatement.
Gaia theory (earth as a conscious entity) would be more reasonable, but we are still talking about vastly longer and far more simplistic, at the very least.
And align with Christianity? LOL No. I would say rather that this is the appeal of other religions like Native American, Far Eastern, and paganism… what my wife would call older religion.
Since I mentioned it in another thread. Yeah to me it aligns perfectly fine with Christianity. Most people don’t really understand what it is. The first time they hear it, which may have been recently for some of yall. It’s not that everything has spirits or thoughts. It’s not animism or spiritualism. It’s less supernatural than everything has a magical soul that continues after death.
So first of all there is no theory of consciousness. Just hypothesis and thoughts. They don’t know how or when consciousness existed by any meaningful scientific means.
So we know that humans are consciousness beings.
We know animals are conscious beings.
So does that mean that consciousness is only experienced by animals? What about tardigrades? They are microscopic. They belong to the subkingdom Eumetazoa. Do the others in that kingdom have consciousness? What about animals like jellyfish? Or sponges? Oysters? Do you have to have a brain to be something that has experiences? How does “instincts” play a role in this? How do so many animals instinctively have behaviors that guide them without them having ever experienced it?
Now what most people do is they don’t bother with questions like this. They just say “ rocks have souls….. stupid…..” and that’s not even what it is. They can’t answer all these much closer questions honestly or with knowledge, so they jump so far away to where they think it’s easier to argue it. But if you step back one step at a time, most can’t or won’t have anything to really contribute to it.
Lastly whatever “scientific reasoning” you’re using for why it’s silly please enlighten me with the science behind how you know god has consciousness.
I guess you could say that God links all life together and could impart that in some way, but it would be pushing the boat out.
(as in Taking things too far. An accepted use of the phrase)
Richard
Then provide an example of that usage.
It is believed that the phrase originally referred to a boat being pushed out further into more dangerous waters and has become popular due to its metaphorical meaning of taking risks, making an effort, and doing something above normal expectations. Source: theidioms.com
I do not care whether you have come across this usage before. I was brought up with it. That does not make me wrong, or give you the right to criticise it.
I gave you an example. You just rejected it as valid
(Now where have We seen this before…)
Richard
Basically it is pushing the boat out too far but no AI or search engine bothers with those last two significant words that make all the difference.
So, not “taking things too far”.
Nor did you.
Hello Mi,
From what I could read online, panpsychism is a philosophy that among other things gives an answer to the hard problem of consciousness. That the “mind” or consciousness is a fundamental aspect to reality. I see how this could solve some problems with understanding abiogenesis and later development of consciousness since you have inanimate matter becoming animate and that still remains of question of how that translate to our current minds. For me, it really just kinds pushes the fundamental question of “mind”/ “consciousness” to a earlier unanswerable question: why is consciousness fundamental to reality itself? What purpose does it serve to inanimate objects other than a precursor building block for further life to use more effectively, when they the proper hardware (the brain)? Can this even be explained within a materialistic worldview? In this ascept, I tenatively don’t see this as against Christian teaching, since one can claim that God created reality that has mentality/ consciousness as a fundamental layer. I guess only Christians who affirm a immaterial soul or that our consciousness points towards that would struggle with panpsychism.
Also, it seems that panpsychism holds to a material worldview and I think i struggle to see how you could empirically test whether any inanimate object has “expierence” and we’re still left in the dark of why that happens and why it’s fundamental to reality. Though, man, it would give a whole new meaning to “the rocks will cry out” lol.
Finally, you had mentioned in a other thread the following:
I relate to it as sort of like a more materialistic take on the supernatural. Still beyond what science supports and so just as “ridiculous” but easier for me to understand. Like with abiogensis, right and left handed molecules aligning, certain patterns becoming more common in nature including the cosmos and that maybe some sort of super intelligence was able to develop within a cosmic cloud of materials . Something that perhaps even spans dimensions and universes, and plays into open and process theology and the Holy Spirit being essentially some sort of Bluetooth power that we can tap into and that Jesus tapped into it so well he essentially was possessed by the power of it. Not in an evil way but super enlightened way to the point he and it was one and the same. The internet signal and the cellphone type of deal.
I can’t find the other thread where you put it more succinctly, so I just was curious to see the development of your beliefs on panpsychism as “God” possibly being this super intelligence developed consciousness out there, versus a understanding that I described that God created reality that all material has “consciousness” (loosely). I guess I’m also curious if you have any position regarding the universe’s origins if “God” seems to arise within the universe rather than outside the universe.
Thanks,
Liam
I guess ultimately I think of God as something that arose within the universe or the multiverse or within some other plane of existence that is materialistic. It’s impossible for me to be more specific than that really. I see evidence of open and process theology within the Bible of God within the Bible being shown to not know everything.
Genesis 11:5 NRSVue
5 The Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which mortals had built.
God in that story did not seem able to see what was happening from whenever he was. So he came closer. He left the heavens to come down among the world to see what was happening. While granted I don’t take this literally, I take it metaphorically, or rather I take it as a myth it still shows he had to come down.
Genesis 22:12 NRSVue
12 He said, “Do not lay your hand on the boy or do anything to him, for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.”
There it implies God tested him and after testing him learned that Abraham does indeed fear him or hold his in the highest position of honor.
Jeremiah 7:30-32nrsvue
30 For the people of Judah have done evil in my sight, says the Lord; they have set their abominations in the house that is called by my name, defiling it.31 And they go on building the high place of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire—which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind. 32 Therefore the days are surely coming, says the Lord, when it will no more be called Topheth or the valley of the son of Hinnom but the valley of Slaughter, for they will bury in Topheth until there is no more room.
Did not even think they were going to do such things. Like he’s caught off guard and in disgust of their actions.
There are a bunch of other verses. So I don’t really see him as someone who knows everything but knows so much more than us that’s it’s beyond our understanding.
I’ve never really cared about string or multiverse theories, or other dimensions and so on and so I don’t know anything about it. I don’t know anything really about quantum mechanics and theories and so on. It’s too far beyond what I really care about. Maybe down the road.
So I don’t know if there are more than one plane of existence. I don’t know if there are other universes or if those other universes are far older. I don’t know if it’s possible to push through one to another even if they exist.
When I think of God it’s not an old bearded man sitting on a cloud that looks like us. I see pulsating vibrations of colors and energy. Something not human in anyways. I see a power that perhaps begin in another universe or in a dimension that spans a multiverses. I see a giant ambiguous cosmic computer that went through abiogenesis.
So I don’t see panpsychism as an answer, solution or anything other than questions that should be thought about and answered working backwards. Such as the ones I already posed. It’s not a religious issue. I also see it as something most have never read a book on and often when it’s brought up in forums it’s days after they learned about it. Ehh don’t see a need to regurgitate any of it.
I just know that jellyfish don’t have brains. Yet jellyfish show purpose. We see jellyfish strategizes on how to catch food. They don’t all just float around like oceanic mini blobs. We know some show self awareness of their space. Spineless is a good book that dives into some jellyfish anatomy and intelligence.
We also see some plants that mimics plastic plants. We have no idea how it does it. We can come up with answers about biomes and so on but ultimately we don’t know.
We see that water bears the Tardigrades are microscopic animals. They are in the animal kingdom. While some can be seen with the naked eye most are much smaller even down to 1/500th of an inch. Yet under a microscope we see them living a life. Developing habits. Different personalities if choices of how they move counts. We see bees choosing to waste energy and time just to visit a flower out of their way that they seem to like.
I see enough to think that there is a possibility that plants and microscopic organisms are aware of their surroundings.
Sponges are animals. Animals so different from us we can relate more to plants often. They don’t have even the stuff that jellyfish have, but what can the water bears have? Being so small. So did it begin with the Urmetazoan or the earliest eukaryotes? I just don’t see enough evidence to discount any of it. Especially when working backwards.
Same with God. How would something exist outside of the universe? Does he exist outside of the brane cosmology?
Even with god creating stuff. Most never think past that. It’s just…. god existed and then he spoke words and like wizards magical spell poof the first whatever material and energy popped into existence. So he just magically was able to create all the energy and mass, or created whatever the big bang was? If you ask someone to apply as much science as possible to it there is no answer. It’s just god is real, since god is real and god is god he’s able to do this god stuff like poof things into existence. Or has this universe expanded and contracted repeatedly. It’s all to vague. It’s fun to think about for a little while until you get tired of questions. Then as far as souls and spirits go…. Unless you provide a material basis it’s just essentially magic talk. Humans have spirits because god is spirit and gave it to us. So how do we know what a spirit actually is if it’s magic talk and if it’s magic talk how is someone going to say well it’s magical enough for us to have it but it’s not magical enough for a rock to have it.
That is panpsychism, not even pantheism. Can’t wash either way. God cannot emerge in eternity. When? Where? Eternal, constant, nature is the biggest, brutest, fact bar none. Only superfluous transcendent supernature would be bigger. There can be no ex nihilo either way.
The Sermon on the Mount was meant for humans, not the rocks under Jesus’ feet. The rock that Jesus built his church on was Peter, not an actual rock. I would say that pansychism is largely irrelevant to Christian theology.
Just a short comment: If God created this universe, as I believe, but cannot have any specific proof, because God has not left direct observational evidence of His existence in this universe, then God exists outside of the space and time of this universe. And one thing that non-physists have a lot of difficulty understanding is that time, as we are experiencing it in our lives in this universe, is a dimension of the universe in which we are living. So if God created this universe, then She must exist somewhere outside of the space AND TIME of this universe that He created.
That’s definitely a take someone can have and many seem to have. But I don’t think that non physicists necessarily struggle with the concept that god exists outside of time and space, they just don’t know the technical stuff. Like I don’t. But as far as existing outside of time and space I don’t have an answer or thought really. I lean towards god as a cosmic being that developed within some dimension of the universe and is able to reach into any and every universe.
Human time perception, feeling, is entirely psychological. Spacetime is a different ballgame entirely. It’s real. But yeah, an intentional, transcendent, ground of eternal, infinite being, i.e. ‘God’, would not be bound in Themselves, in Their spirit selves, by spacetime.
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