Origin of Covid — Following the Clues

Yes, thanks – I was just speaking as a layperson, of course. It still seems like a deficiency in the particular lab’s facilities, practices or personnel could be worthwhile discovering, though. Do they have a national laboratory accrediting agency like the College of American Pathologists, I wonder. Rigor vs corruption could be an issue, too, I expect. Under whose purview is your lab?

In the third link you gave it said
“While the immune system protects us from many pathogens, the inflammation that occurs as part of the immune response can also damage our own tissues and impair the function of our organs when pathogens stimulate a very strong response.”
But that is not evidence. I want to see what experiments have been done to show this is the case.

Also we need to explain why some and really only a few individuals have excessive inflammation while the great majority don’t even though they have the virus.

I honestly think you would enjoy hands on experience in the medical profession. You could see a lot. Sepsis and asthma, with rheumatoid arthritis and other inflammatory, autoimmune diseases (lupus, etc; these can occur in animals, too) respond to steroids and other treatments and are examples of excess immune inflammatory response.

The vast majority do have some symptoms. I honestly don’t know why some over react, and others don’t, but there have been studies about blood type links, etc. It may be in part genetic. It is related in part to age, obesity (which impairs immunity), etc.

Thanks.

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Yes, Randy, I agree with everything you have said. There is no doubt evidence that there is an over-reaction of the immune system. We sure see it in autoimmune diseases. I am not disputing this.

What I don’t see evidence for is that a virus, or other pathogen or pollution, smoke chemicals etc., can cause the immune system to over-react.
Sure there are some papers trying to make the case but on looking more closely I am not convinced. For example:
Up-regulation of IL-6 and TNF-α induced by SARS-coronavirus spike protein in murine macrophages via NF-κB pathway (nih.gov)

We read here that they are using RAW264.7 cells

What are RAW264.7 cells ?

They are cells derived from….

BALB/c (H-2d) mice bearing a mutation of the zeta-chain–associated protein, 70-kD (ZAP-70) gene spontaneously develop autoimmune arthritis with clinical, histologic, and serologic features resembling human RA.42

( BALB/c - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics )

Why not use human lung alveoli cells? Tons of operations are done on people’s lungs and tissue removed, indeed whole lobes removed. So where’s the problem?

I will PM you with other information that is personal.

Thanks. I’m at work, so unable to type much, but here are some thoughts:

  1. if we take Tylenol for a fever, that’s for what we consider to be a bit too much inflammatory response to a pathogen (there is some reason for fever, though it can be too much; fevers inhibit pathogen growth, for example).
  2. if you search the terms DIC, sepsis, and SIRS, you can read a lot on inappropriate excess inflammatory responses to pathogens. One interesting example is that fact that low blood pressure (hypotension) is a major cause of death, in part from overreaction to pathogens–so much so that when you go to emergency room, the first treatment for sepsis with hypotension to prevent shock and end organ collapse is to give fluids, before antibiotics. The choice of fluids is life saving. If fluids alone are not enough, you have to have vasopressors (norepinephrine, dopamine, etc).

We need to be careful not to miss the forest for the trees. You’d really enjoy watching some ICU tutorials, I bet.
Thanks. Blessings!
Randy

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Thanks for the information you gave me. I looked up the terms and for the benefit of others here this is what i found.
. Sepsis is the body’s extreme response to an infection.

What is sepsis? | Sepsis | CDC

Sepsis occurs when your body’s immune system starts to send infection-fighting chemicals throughout your body rather than just to the infection itself. These chemicals cause inflammation and start to attack the healthy tissues. Your body is no longer fighting the infection, it’s fighting itself. Researchers don’t know why this happens.

What Is Sepsis? What It Is and What It Isn’t | Sepsis Alliance

“Systemic inflammatory response syndrome (SIRS) is an exaggerated defense response of the body to a noxious stressor (infection, trauma, surgery, acute inflammation, ischemia or reperfusion, or malignancy, to name a few) to localize and then eliminate the endogenous or exogenous source of the insult. ”

Then in the next paragraph it begins saying :

“SIRS with a suspected source of infection is termed sepsis .”

Systemic Inflammatory Response Syndrome - PubMed (nih.gov)

In the conclusion of this paper it says:

“SIRS is only moderately related to infection on arrival” (arrival to hospital)

The Systemic Inflammatory Response Syndrome (SIRS) in acutely hospitalised medical patients: a cohort study (nih.gov)

Disseminated intravascular coagulation (DIC) is a rare but serious condition that causes abnormal blood clotting throughout the body’s blood vessels. It is caused by another disease or condition, such as an infection or injury, that makes the body’s normal blood clotting process become overactive.

Disseminated Intravascular Coagulation | NHLBI, NIH

Disseminated intravascular coagulation (DIC) is characterized by systemic activation of blood coagulation, which results in generation and deposition of fibrin, leading to microvascular thrombi in various organs and contributing to multiple organ dysfunction syndrome (MODS). [1, 2] Consumption of clotting factors and platelets in DIC can result in life-threatening hemorrhage. [3]

Derangement of the fibrinolytic system further contributes to intravascular clot formation, but in some cases, accelerated fibrinolysis may cause severe bleeding. Hence, a patient with DIC can present with a simultaneously occurring thrombotic and bleeding problem, which obviously complicates the proper treatment

Disseminated Intravascular Coagulation (DIC): Background, Pathophysiology, Etiology (medscape.com)

I don’t think we can simply say that these are caused by an over-reaction to pathogens. Sure, we see the conditions and in most cases there are pathogens as well, though not in all cases, and it is easy to jump to the conclusion that the pathogens cause the immune system to go berserk, out of control, but we don’t have evidence that this is the case. There maybe some other reason.

The number of sepsis cases per year has been on the rise in the United States
Sepsis (nih.gov)
They are trying to attribute it to factors like more awareness of sepsis. More awareness? It is not as if someone can have sepsis and not know it. Then the usual claim of people with serious illness living longer… I don’t buy this.

One big problem that I see is that there is too much emphasis on the body to explain everything and not much or none on a person’s thinking and especially ideas that have become beliefs. I have recently been involved in discussions with someone on depression and I looked at some videos. I watched Prof. Sapolsky’s video on depression. He’s from Stanford University. He points to anything and everything in the body and discards the person’s thinking. He keeps says “everything screams biology”. A person’s reactions to ideas IS biology, but the biology alone doesn’t give the full picture.

what is the patient thinking? Are they distressed about the infection or injury? Do they have any ideas that the infection has gone everywhere or that they may get an infection that goes everywhere. These ideas would be deadly as the bodily response may ignite an over-reaction of the immune system. This needs to be researched. Drugs are needed but why not address the person’s thinking? It could be the critical factor.

Thanks for looking up the CDC. It’s got good resources.

You might also want to read about conversion disorder (it’s not about faith) and Christian Science (it’s not scientific).

Blessings.
Randy

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Here you go:

Or, check out one of the 80,000 peer reviewed original research papers in this search:

There are two major possibilities here. Option one is that you already did a pubmed search and saw that there were 10’s of thousands of experiments that demonstrated immune responses to viruses and are just pretending that you never saw them. Option two is that you are trying to make sweeping claims about the state of science without even doing a simple search of the scientific literature. Which is it?

Ummm didnt China itself admited it got out of control in a lab where studies happened using the virus?

Not want to get political but its China.A dictatorship.Nothing less expected.The fact that they didnt informed us well in the first place show that the gov there cares only for its reputation

No.

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Joining with others . . . NO!

The big problem here is that there is an in-built bias against China, right or wrong. The lab escape theory is just . . . lazy. Along the same lines, every defendant in every criminal case could say that it’s possible the cops framed them, which is true. I personally don’t trust the Chinese government as far as I can throw them, but I still need to see evidence before I will give the lab escape theory any credence.

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Do you think lab animals get sick because of their beliefs? Do cells in cell culture release cytokines in response to pathogens because of their beliefs?

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How well are we being informed by anyone, dictatorship or not?
Look at this
Fauci Argued Benefits of Gain-of-Function Research Outweighed Pandemic Risk in 2012 Paper

Anthony Fauci Argued Gain-of-Function Research Outweighed Pandemic Risk in 2012 | National Review

Fauci knew about possible COVID lab leak evidence, ‘gain of function’ concerns, emails reveal

Fauci knew about possible COVID lab leak evidence, ‘gain of function’ concerns, emails reveal | News | LifeSite (lifesitenews.com)

Fauci, the head of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID), told a House Appropriations subcommittee that the money was funneled to the Chinese lab through the non-profit EcoHealth Alliance to fund “a modest collaboration with very respectable Chinese scientists who were world experts on coronavirus.”

[Fauci admits NIH funding of Wuhan lab, denies ‘gain of function’ (nypost.com)](#:~:text=Fauci, the head of the National Institute of,Chinese scientists who were world experts on coronavirus.%E2%80%9D)

Fauci insists that it was a high likelihood that it was a natural occurrence and not out of the lab BUT no one knows 100%.
“Why Did You Dismiss The Lab-Leak Theory?”: Rubio Grills Fauci On Past Statements Of COVID-19 Origin - YouTube

02:24 i have always said that the high
02:26 likelihood is that this is a natural
02:28 occurrence
02:29 i didn’t dismiss anything i just said
02:31 it’s a high likelihood
02:33 that this is a natural occurrence from
02:36 the environment of an animal reservoir
02:38 that we have not yet identified well and
02:41 i still maintain that but as as i just
02:43 mentioned to the response
02:45 to other questions that since you don’t
02:48 know 100 percent
02:50 about that because no one knows
02:51 including me 100 percent
02:53 what the origin is is the reason why
02:56 we’re in favor of further investigation

Funds research on virus in China, in support of gain of function research even at the risk of public safety worldwide, but hey this wasn’t gain of function we funded!

I would say lab animals get sick due to stress. Some are treated well, others not so well, but even treated well they are living in highly unnatural conditions.

A pet owner’s beliefs can affect a pet.

I have seen that my relationship with certain wildlife can influence them. For instance if I wake up early the kookaburras put pressure on me to supply chicken pieces early. If I sleep in they don’t bother. How do I know? I have set up a recorder many times and found when I sleep in to late after going to bed very late, they are not even heard from a distance or barely heard. If I am awake and not even out of bed yet, they start laughing, the signature call to have me give them chicken. lol

Given all that I would say that a researcher in charge of lab animals would have an influence on them. If they believe something it would have an effect on the animals.

Likewise I think you can also influence cells in a cell culture.
image

I am still looking at other papers but at least in this study that you linked they are doing “ex vivo stimulation”, which means they are taking the cells out, manipulating them and then putting them back to get the effect they want. That is not the virus doing anything.

This is what control groups are for. Or do you believe that scientists are so unprofessional that they might actually think to themselves: “Oh - let’s make sure to give our experimental groups here much nicer treatment than the standard treatment we give to the control groups. Because that will then leave us in the dark about whether our tested variable is having the effect in question!”

This just isn’t the way scientists think, Ani. They’re way ahead of you in all this.

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That is way science works, and Fauci was just being accurate and precise in his language to reflect both the evidence and the uncertainty. The media in contrast tends to generalize and paint in large strokes, making black and white statements, when in fact those blanket statements are distortions of the truth.

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You are not talking to some ignorant person of the general public. I did my bachelor of science degree part time working at the university. In that time I work for around two years in the schools of the biological sciences. I saw plenty first hand. And yes, there are decent people but there are also some that are the worst. Just because you have enough intelligence to do research doesn’t make you decent. And what is professional? Open to interpretation from what I have seen.

The worst case I saw was a PhD student jabbing mice with a syringe one by one and dropping each of them back into the cage. the jab was forceful and painful enough for the mice to be squealing even back in the cage. I approached his supervisor, a senor academic about it. He did not find any problem for his student behavior or should I say "professionalism’, that needed addressing. Rather he said something along the lines of “we are not employing you to be a critic of how we do things around here”. How good are the result if the mice are stressed and stressed badly?

But even under the best conditions, with the empathetic or professional if you like, researchers, the lab animals are still living unnatural lives, often in crowed conditions. It is unrealistic to think that they won’t be stressed. So it is not a case of any control experiment that can address this issue.

Lab animals are treated no differently than any other lab apparatus, without any regard as living creatures by many so called “professionals”. I recall seeing an American documentary on television some years back. A woman scientist had a shoe box with about six pigeons in it. She had cut holes in the lid for their heads to go through. And she was fussed because they wouldn’t sit still till she got her results. Her only concern was to get the data she wanted. After all the pigeons were then euthanized and thrown in the trash. How good were those results?

Certainly the media is not to be believed. They commonly distort the picture. However Fauci and others have admitted to funding virology research in China. And it becomes a bit difficult to understand why fund this research in China when it can be done in the US. After all GOF research would or at least could give rise to a more dangerous virus that could be used as a bioweapon. The US and China appear to be at odds with each other will threatened nuclear attacks. So why develop a bioweapon with your enemy? It seems paradoxical. However there could also be corrupt people behind it that are only using both the US and China as fronts to hide behind.

Gain of Function research in virology was banned in the US some years back and the funding of research in some sort of virology in China came after that. So it becomes a bit suspicious. Why would they suddenly be interested in funding any research in China? Now the US, just a few days ago it seems, has banned the NIH and anyone else from funding gain of function research in China. Why has that suddenly happened? It causes people to start asking themselves what is really going on?

The control animals don’t die, but the ones exposed to pathogens do die. How do you explain that?

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