On the Etiquette of Dying

[MarkD (A Whateverist, not a Christian)]

@gbob

I then thought of my older brother, who died of cancer when he was 29 leaving a wife and 2 tiny kids, and thought, “What do I have to gripe about, I saw my kids grow up?”

I can appreciate that. I have a Borg division of siblings, in which I am Second of Seven. (Sorry if this Star Trek reference doesn’t connect.) But growing up, Fifth of Seven was sort of my apprentice. When his bad knees and feet got him booted from the air force at 19 he came to live with me. One beautiful Sunday we spent driving up the coast in his Fiat Spider. We stopped for gas less than a mile from home and on the home stretch a drunk passed out at the wheel of his big american beater and ran into us head on. I who always wear a seat belt somehow did not this time. Fifth of Seven had his on. I was in and out of consciousness many times, Rodney went into a coma from which he never emerged and doctors told my best friend who pressed them that he was brain dead. He did everything one can hope to do as the driver in that situation but there was no way to escape the collision.

I must say I attach no meaning to the fact that I survived without a seatbelt in the catapult seat while he did not. To think otherwise I’d have to believe there was meaning for him to have lost his life so young. There is no way his life was less important than mine or that he was less deserving than I. It wasn’t about me and it wasn’t about him nor do I think the drunk (who also survived) was given an important life lesson. ■■■■ happens. We all die. And yet life is very precious still and acquires the meaning we find and claim.

@gbob

I will answered. When I was diagnosed in 2003 with my cancer, and the doctor, whose bedside manner was to yell at me that I was going to be his first patient to die since PSA came in and that it was going to be very quick, I went into the normal human depression at that information.

Very understandable and definitely a human experience which can add depth if you don’t drown in it. I’d say you seem to have kept your balance. When my brother died, I was recently separated from my first wife, after months of disability I quit my job with little thought of what I would do next and one night while returning from walking past the place where the accident had happened again I wasn’t paying attention and my first dog got run over by someone speeding out of a bar’s parking lot. She’d fallen behind to sniff something but when I heard the tires squeal I called her and she came immediately to her peril. Needless to say I have also experienced depression just this one time for about a year and a half but I didn’t seek treatment. I just read and slept a lot. I became uncomfortable around people and felt I’d become duller, less insightful. I remember reaching a point when I decided I would just let go of wishing I was what I had been and decided to just begin again and see what would happen. My life would not have been anywhere near as meaningful to me if this had not have happened. Except for losing Fifth of Seven, I have no regrets at all.

@gbob

I do believe God has kept me alive far beyond the statistics for some purpose

Probably for many purposes. I think the purpose of life is to serve that something more that sometimes gives you more perspective than you would have living entirely for your self chosen purposes. After the accident I lost insight into other people, myself or much of anything else. I think losing confidence in myself left me open to what I could discover by just waiting and holding a space for an answer rather than being quick to fill all the spaces in as I would have in the past. They say sometimes you have to lose yourself to find yourself but I think what I found was what gives rise to God belief. Which is good because I think I needed some help and before I got it I realized how much we all depend on what is really given as a gift but which we think of as our own doing. I still don’t think God is a separate being, it is far subtler than that. But I know there is something more and as a result I am more now than I was when I thought I was clever.

@gbob

If anything, my cancer and impending death has made me realize how true Christianity is.

True for you is what matters. Go with that.

@gbob

God doesn’t owe me anything, not a healing, not longer life, nor a lack of pain.

Amen to that. We literally swim in gifts. Nothing more is required.

@gbob

Since I nearly became an atheist, what I learned of atheism and agnosticism, Yall use half of the data, the materialist part, and ignore the other half of the data needed to understand this world, the spiritual part. Faith is a part of everyone’s life, but the key is faith in the right thing.

I readily admit to having faith but I refuse to think I need to read about what it is I have faith in from any experts or historical eye witnesses of miracles. If it works for you, great. The main thing is to foster that relationship. You’ve done that. Believe me when it comes time to cash in my chips I won’t feel cheated in any way. I’m glad you feel the same way.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@MarkD

I guess I must have a choice since I don’t infer meaningless.

That just indicates that you don’t take your worldview to its logical conclusion.

[gbob]

@MarkD

True for you is what matters. Go with that.

As I have rejected accommodationalism, I also can’t agree with the above either. What is true matters. Truth for me doesn’t matter. The truth, or falsity of what I believe will be determined in the after life. If it is Parsiism that is found to be true, then I have wasted my life. And if it is atheism/ materialism. I won’t have any regrets because regrets are thoughts. Personal annihilation leaves nothing to have thoughts in. lol Did you think you would sneak that presupposition past me?

I really do reject this common idea of ‘your truth’. The implicit presupposition, is that there is NO truth. Truth for me can’t be 2+2 =347298 and for you 2+2=5 at the same time. Both are not true.

[MarkD (A Whateverist, not a Christian)]

Well I think there is something which gives rise to and supports God belief, that it matters and that it is possible to have a relationship to. I don’t think it is well understood and so I don’t think the form which it takes is paramount. If your concept of God helps you maintain that relationship, I think that is what matters most. But I don’t think you need to wait for an afterlife to know that it is true. The test that matters is the relationship, the wordless, formless relationship which is felt. If you recognize its importance, makes space for it and act accordingly you’ll know. Just not “know” in the way you “know” arithmetic.

I wasn’t trying to slip any presuppositions over on you. I’m telling you what seems to true to me. From my perspective, this is true.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@Dale

everything has meaning

@MarkD

This seems a little like saying everything is the most important thing. But that doesn’t jive with my experience.

They don’t even come close to equating. Did you ever work with inequalities in math? You way understated that. It seems exceedingly little like to the point of being nothing like!

It should not jive with your experience. Not one eensie bit.
 

@MarkD

…what I think gives rise to God belief

What you think gives rise to God belief. Huh. It has more than a little to do with accepting testimony, having had occasion to find that testimony true, and then having had the reality of dynamic interaction. It is not just “God belief.”

(Have you ever reflected on how much of what you believe reality to be is based solely on your acceptance of testimony?)

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@MarkD

True for you is what matters.

Ah, the relativism of a post-truth culture. There are no absolutes. Absolutely.

[MarkD (A Whateverist, not a Christian)]

@Dale, I don’t appreciate your self congratulatory, non-reflective attitude. I won’t be responding to these posts of yours here.

[gbob]

@MarkD

The test that matters is the relationship, the wordless, formless relationship which is felt. If you recognize its importance, makes space for it and act accordingly you’ll know. Just not “know” in the way you “know” arithmetic.

Some have argued that the evolution of altruism is involved in the evolution of religion. I do know statistics show atheists give less money to charitable causes than do devout religious people. Charitable giving is a good thing for society.

Of a relationship, as I have said, I can’t feel comfortable fooling myself. I did that early in my adult life and will try never to do it again. If what I have is a relationship with an idea, that isn’t a relationship, in my view. I can have a relationship with my cat, or another human, and, I think, a God, but to have a relationship with an idea of a God who doesn’t exist lacks the two way interaction a relationship requires.

I was joking about the slipping a presupposition. That is why I used an emoji and the lol. I won’t deny later discussing it with seriousness.

[MarkD (A Whateverist, not a Christian)]

@gbob

Of a relationship, as I have said, I can’t feel comfortable fooling myself. I did that early in my adult life and will try never to do it again. If what I have is a relationship with an idea, that isn’t a relationship, in my view.

Well you may of course decide on what terms you will or won’t have a relationship with whomever you like. But just so you know I’ve never said I had a relationship with God. I’ve been careful to say what it is that I tune into is probably what gives rise to and supports God belief. I suspect that had I been successfully assimilated into an intact culture in which an expectation was implanted that a relationship with God could happen, I would have assumed that is what I experienced. I don’t think whatever it may be is exactly like a person. In some ways yes but in other ways no. At any rate there have been no words exchanged, or if there were I assumed they were timely recollections of sentiments I’d heard from others or read about somewhere. Who is to say? Like you I do not wish to read in more than is there. But I’m not expecting whatever it is to meet my expectations. Much is given but no invitation have I received to interrogate this and insist that it jump into any of the conceptual cubby holes I can imagine. It feels to me as if this relationship is entirely up to me. But it feels as if I need to meet it more than half way, like it would be content to do its job and let me do mine. I’m the nosy one who would like more interaction. But I guess you wouldn’t call it a relationship unless whatever it was produced the bonafides you expected and submitted to your questioning. I don’t think it works that way.

@gbob

I can have a relationship with my cat, or another human, and, I think, a God, but to have a relationship with an idea of a God who doesn’t exist lacks the two way interaction a relationship requires.

For me it isn’t the idea of a God. I conceptualize it as another center of consciousness, possibly something earlier than that which we seem to rule in our conscious minds. That is the only way I can makes sense of it and it also the way I make sense of religious experience. I assume the intra-personal is being projected out into the trans-personal and I doubt that is warranted. I don’t know it for a fact but that is my best guess regarding what is going on.

@gbob

Some have argued that the evolution of altruism is involved in the evolution of religion. I do know statistics show atheists give less money to charitable causes than do devout religious people. Charitable giving is a good thing for society.

Could be true. I don’t know. But I’m not at all sure that whatever-it-is is anywhere near as obsessed with morality as the God of the Bible. I think I feel closer and more approval when I’m in nature or working in my garden or involved in some other aesthetic activity. That is when I feel more receptive and notice how much like gifts inspiration is, to the point where it seems awkward to accept credit for anything more than acting faithfully to bring about what is given. From my one bout with depression I know that insight into the minds and hearts of others isn’t the product of my own cleverness either. That is a gift which can be withdrawn. We don’t bring that about, we just take credit for it.

One point of difference I feel with Christianity is the desire to put God on a pedestal, to earn his favor and to call Him lord. I don’t think what I think gives rise to God belief cares about any of that. I think we’re partners. In fact I’d say I’m the CEO and whatever it is the board of directors who can vote me out or dismiss me for egregious conduct. But whatever-it-is wants me to use my capacity for exploring hypothetical alternatives. But like any good CEO I need to look to the board to understand the mission of the organization, that isn’t up to me.

One part of the mission that I am very clear on is that treating others as fully autonomous human beings who are deserving of respect is essential. It feels very wrong not to and so very important to tune into the needs of others. But I do not feel compelled to devote myself to working with lepers in India or any other grand sacrifice. I have no indication that the board cares about that as much as it does tuning into the beauty of nature and the importance and dignity of all creatures (even the ones who taste good).

[gbob]

One of the first things I noticed in your post is the use of the word ‘feel’ a lot. I have read that use of this word vs the word ‘think’ marks a big divide in human personalities and the ultimate outlook. Example:

I think I feel closer and more approval when I’m in nature or working in my garden or involved in some other aesthetic activity. That is when I **feel **more receptive and notice how much like gifts inspiration is, …

It is probably my personality to not try to ‘feel’. My feelings can be very misleading. Logic, I find less misleading although if one starts with the wrong assumption one ends up with the wrong conclusion, there is no similar mechanism for judging if our feelings are leading us in the right direction or not. My feelings always say, ‘Go eat another cookie’ and that isn’t always good for me. LOL

I am not criticizing the difference, It is a difference that exists among humans.

@MarkD

One point of difference I feel with Christianity is the desire to put God on a pedestal, to earn his favor and to call Him lord.

I don’t believe Christian theology says we have to earn God’s favor, at least most Protestant theology says that. Yes, individual Christians try to do that, but as I understand theology, we simply can’t earn his favor.

We also don’t put him on a pedestal because we like him there, or feel he should be there; it is because we believe He exists and that is his rightful place. If He doesn’t exist, who cares? If He does, it brings with it a lot of logical implications to our world view.

One part of the mission that I am very clear on is that treating others as fully autonomous human beings who are deserving of respect is essential.

This is not directed at you but are thoughts that your sentence caused me to think about.

Again I find an interesting question in the above. I agree about treating people with respect, but I may have a different view of respect than some. I believe people can live up to a high standard. One of the things I did as a manager was not very popular. I emphasized quality control on the oil prospects we were thinking about drilling. I was one of the hardest QC people in my company, my management knew it and would send me to places they felt required tighter scrutiny of the science–indeed, 3 dry holes in a row was why I was sent to the UK and I was told in no uncertain terms to fix that.

Now, I knew the people who worked for me could do better. I treated them like adults, but adults should be able to handle objections to the ideas they are presenting–even tough questions. Coddling or worrying about feelings doesn’t improve the success rate Logic was how we improved the success rate in the wells we drilled. I did the same thing in China and we had the first successful well in about 5 years. Sadly, other factors led to the company not pursuing it as a field. I still think they walked from a good oil field. But no one, not even me, likes to have my work scrutinized in detail. In science that is a necessity. Why it isn’t considered so in theology as well, amazes me, given that I think theology may be more important.

[MarkD (A Whateverist, not a Christian)]

@gbob

I have read that use of this word vs the word ‘think’ marks a big divide in human personalities and the ultimate outlook.

Indeed it does. Like you I was highly, nearly exclusively actually, a thinker rather than a feeler into young adulthood. But after that one bout with depression as I was beginning to see what was next I did some exploring, both through counseling and personal exploration groups. P.E.G. was a program U.C. Berkeley offered which consisted of ten curious people like me and two moderators (I forget what they called them but that was essentially their role). Basically the 12 of us met for a couple hours once a week to talk about whatever people wanted to talk about. There weren’t any set routines but occasionally one of the mods would ask a useful follow up question. People pretty much self moderated in terms of sharing the floor and it is an interesting format where you can be right there involved in a conversation yet not feel you have to say anything at all unless you feel moved to do so.

Long story short I discovered there is an entire realm of human experience which does not involve thinking. I found out I was pretty stunted in that area but probably more in the therapy I did later I learned how to tune into what I was feeling. Not that I’m especially good at it but I probably progressed at least from clueless to novice. But guess what, feelings aren’t simply something manipulative people use to get their way in lieu of making a good argument. Often people in the shape I was in to begin with, only register comfort and interest or else a negative feeling like anger, resentment or hurt. But there is a lot more down there and most of it will tell you more about what is important to you and who you are than anything you’ll ever discover through thinking. I know! Why didn’t someone tell you sooner, right?

But feel free to express yourself through thinking with me. It was my first mode and is still dominant but like an ex smoker I may speak up for feeling where I see it being discounted.

@gbob

My feelings can be very misleading. Logic, I find less misleading although if one starts with the wrong assumption one ends up with the wrong conclusion, there is no similar mechanism for judging if our feelings are leading us in the right direction or not.

Logic is good for cleaning up the morass of what you already know but it won’t tell you what among any of that matters. Like they always say, you can’t derive an ought from an is. Unless you unlock feeling you’re either guessing or acting on borrowed oughts.

@gbob

I am not criticizing the difference, It is a difference that exists among humans.

That’s very Christian of you and I hope I’m not coming off as too condescending in my defense of feeling but, well, it can be the difference between living your own life and never knowing what the heck is going on. (Are the emoji’s working? It is really hard as a convert to valuing feeling not to sing its praises.)

@gbob

I agree about treating people with respect, but I may have a different view of respect than some.

No judgement. If you accept the job of whipping the rowers they sure won’t pay you to be their best friend instead. I can see how that might cause you some conflict but I think we all do things for the sake of roles we assume that are essential to those roles which we wouldn’t do willy nilly to just anyone. I might tell my stepson not to slouch but I’m not telling the kid ahead of me at the bank machine the same. Not my place.

The point that I’ve been tempted to raise here as a separate thread involves moral exceptionalism which I think leads most Christians to feel they could always be doing more. Way too much emphasis on doing over being IMO. But I’ll put that aside unless it interests you.

[mattconnally (Badger Ward)]

@gbob

What I chose today impacts what happened 2 billion years ago to that piece of energy that was traveling past a galaxy which is acting as a gravitational lens to that energy. My mind, my soul, gets to decide how the energy I see reaching today behaved two billion years ago; either as a particle or as a wave but not both.

Hey Bob, hope you’re finishing strong. Listen, I have a crazy question for you. Could your quote above provide possible support for young-earth creationists? You’ve made it clear that you’re an old-earth creationist, which I also favor. But given the fact that we have zero idea what time even is, just as we have no idea what most of the quantum zoo particles do, just as we have no idea what most of the universe is made of, could it be coherent to see mind-induced collapse as supportive of young-earth creationism? For example, could it be like saying that even though God reveals himself as billions of light-years in size, his revelation and response to us is immediate and personal?

[gbob]

Hi Matt,

I don’t think it is possible from this to argue for a young earth. A young earth has problems almost anywhere one turns in science. If God made the universe look old but it really isn’t old, I run into the question of God’s veracity. there are events in the light waves which show every sign of happening thousands or millions of years ago, yet these events have nothing to do with the structure of the world. A case in point is supernova 1987A. It was encoded in the light rays coming from the Magellanic cloud long before we were aware of it. It makes no difference to how the world is constructed so there is no reason I can see for god to encode this information in the lightwaves. It is a needless appearance of age. Here is my write up from my book, Foundation Fall and Flood.

" There is a surprising confirmation from astronomy that the rates of radioactive decay have not changed. This information came to light in the early 1990s. It caused me much concern because it proved several things. It proved that the speed of light had not changed. It proved that the rates of radioactive decay had been constant for millennia and it proved that the universe was at least 169,000 years old. These three items struck directly at my attempts to solve the young earth problems. The young earth model, which I had advanced in the early 1980s, depended upon a change in the speed of light. My views were exploded by a supernova.
On February 23, 1987, a supernova exploded in the Large Magellanic Cloud. It was the brightest and nearest supernova since 1604, which was prior to the invention of the telescope. Over the next several months, a ring of material around the supernova began to glow. The ring had not been observed before but was made of material ejected by the star about 5,000 years earlier than the explosion. The ultraviolet light from the supernova was heating the material in the ring causing it to glow (Figure 4).

*Knowing the time it took for the light to travel from the supernova to the ring, and the angular diameter of the ring as observed from the earth, it was simple trigonometry to determine that the supernova was 169 thousand light-years away from the earth (Figure 5).44

Theoretical models of supernovas had predicted that the decay of cobalt-56, created in large amounts, would power the light given off by the later stages of the supernova event. As cobalt-56 decays, the brightness drops accordingly. By July 1987, the light curve was decreasing at exactly that predicted from the half-life of cobalt-56.44 Thus we can say with certainty that the rates of radioactive decay when the supernova exploded were identical with those rates observed today! And from this we can be certain that the light from the supernova took 169 thousand years to reach us, meaning that the rates of radioactive decay have been constant for the past 169 thousand years. Some young-earth creationists have proposed that the speed of light was more rapid in the past, but all of these views require that the rates of radioactive decay vary as the speed of light varies.45 If the rate of decay does not change then the speed of light could not have changed either.*
A young-earth creationist could claim that the light-decay curve does not prove that cobalt is actually powering the supernova. The following data should dispel that objection. Gehrels, et al, state,*

“Observations of Supernova 1987A stunningly confirmed the prediction. Cobalt 56 has a half-life of 77 days; from 1987 through 1990, the visible light from the supernova faded at exactly that rate. The Solar Maximum Mission satellite and instruments on National Aeronautics and Space Administration research balloons also detected gamma rays from the supernova carrying 847,000 and 1,238,000 electron volts. These are precisely the energies associated with the decay of cobalt 56.”

"Since 1991 the visible light from supernova 1987A has faded at a rate corresponding to a half-life of about 270 days, the exact half-life of cobalt 57. It seems that cobalt 57 is now the main radioactive isotope powering the supernova. OSSE has followed up on the previous observations by detecting the 122,000-electron-volt gamma rays characteristic of the decay of cobalt 57."46*

Data from the supernova prove several things. The geometry of the ring and the time delay before the ring was observed prove that the supernova is 169 thousand light-years away. The gamma ray observations prove that short-lived cobalt 56 and 57 were produced by the supernova. The decay of the light curve with precisely the half-life of these isotopes proves that these isotopes power the light curve and that the rate of radioactive decay has not changed for the past 169 thousand years. The fact that the radioactive decay has been constant proves that the speed of light has not changed over the past 169 thousand years.

Glenn R. Morton, Foundation, Fall and Flood, 3rd edition, 1998, p. 32-33

[ronedee]

Hi Bob, I hope this finds you holding up well. I read your essay and find myself in the care position of my dad, who is dying in the last stages of bladder cancer. He typifies the worst case scenario of the “bad” cancer patient. Not only as a medical patient, but the person struggling with his spirituality. If, that’s what you can call it! He’s 82 and never got his bladder removed, as directed by his doctors. Now he’s paying that decision with a lot of pain and agony, mentally and physically. As a Christian, I am concerned for his soul. He’s not led a very virtuous life, to say the least. And w/o getting too graphic, most of my family has been hurt by him, in various ways. I’m the oldest child, so I skirted most of the things that my siblings and step-siblings suffered through the years. So I’ve volunteered to endure the: physical, emotional, mental and spiritual rollercoaster ride he’s been on for the last 8 or 9 months. He’s been talking about God, but is very limited in his spiritual scope. He has a perfect vision of Hell, but totally blind of Heaven, and the concept of God’s Love for him. Needless to say, it’s been very nerve racking, and at times very contentious, as he tries to rock my faith with his doubt. We’ve been at each other throats, and crying in each others arms. He is a very complicated man, who has shown his family love, but also the worst in many other ways. I don’t know what to do? I’m trying to show him God’s love, and just be there for him…but spiritually, he is like a 7 year old. You seem like you have a lot of Wisdom. Do you have any advice for me? I will understand if you are unable. I hate even asking. God’s blessings and Love for you. Ron

[gbob]

Hi Ron whew, That is a tough situation and going from generalities to specific situations is well, almost impossible. If my reading between the lines is correct, my back ground is similar but different in specifics. My dad was an atheist, pushed over the line by a mother who was physically abusive to both me and my brother and psychologically abusive to my sister. I say this not to say I know what you are going through because, I simply don’t. You are a far better person as a care giver than I ever was or could be to my parents, and that is to my shame.

The simple fact that you have stayed to help is a testament to your faith and love, something I have often wondered if I would have shown that care to my mother had she lived to an age where one of the kids had to give care. In the few moments I am totally honest with myself, I fear I would have walked away. Thus you are showing your love to your father in spite of all his evil. He has to know that, and no doubt, at times that might eat at his craw a bit.

As my dad got older, I tried to share the Gospel but because of my sociopathic mother who spouted the Bible as a cudgel against anything we in the family did, that she disapproved of, my Dad would not even let me start telling him the Gospel. He shut me down each time I tried. He died an atheist. Looking back there wasn’t much I was going to do to get him to listen, and indeed, I did what I was supposed to do, I tried. Dad had to figure out what he wanted on his own and that is between him and God. So don’t feel any guilt about where your dad is when he dies. That isn’t your responsibility. Your responsibility is to share the gospel and I am not sure how many times one needs to share it. Too often becomes nagging. So don’t think 'one more time I might have moved his stone heart." I couldn’t move my dad’s stone heart, only he could have.

Of your dad, if he is trying to rock your faith, stay firm but loving (and believe me I know how hard that loving part is when someone has wronged you or your siblings). He might be testing your faith to see if it is real. Or, he might be trying to destroy it because he doesn’t like it. I don’t know which the case is. If you have shared the gospel, then just be there for him. Actions speak a lot louder than words. There isn’t anything you can do to make him come to the Lord–besides, that isn’t our job as Christians anyway. We are to tell them, the response is up to them completely.

No, I obviously don’t have wisdom. We all are like blind men feeling our way towards death, doing our best in times of doubt, pain, and wondering about the end,and the financial issues that might arise after… Sometimes I think it is harder on the caregiver than it is on the patient because there is nothing my wife can really do to change the situation for me, and nothing you can do to change this situation for him. You both are helpless bystanders in some sense, watching the train as it will eventually fall over the cliff.

Finally for you, get some satisfaction out of the fact that you stayed to help your dad when he might not have deserved it at all. That alone says so very much about your love of God, because it very well might not be motivated by love of your Dad at times. We humans don’t deserve God’s love yet he gives it to us; Your dad might not deserve your love but you are giving it to him by your presence. If you want private message me and I will give you my email.

[ronedee]

Hi Bob, thank you so much for your reply! I now realize this is pretty close to home for you! Hopefully this isn’t bringing too much hurt back. You are spot on about my dad! He is trying to “both” destroy my peace and faith, and testing me. My youngest brother has said, “he’s riding your back to heaven.” Which I replied… He’s certainly riding my back, but he’s responsible for his own redemption & salvation.

As I said, my dad is a complicated man, who is very intelligent, controlling, deceitful and about as garrulous as a person could be. A self-made union organizer and business agent who “never lost a bargaining agreement”, or an argument! He wears you out, until you give into his will. Just a horrible person to be around for any length of time. You know his every thought, and motive w/ excruciating detail. Listening to him for more than an hour or 2, could lead to suicide, or murder, or both! He really has no personality. He’s obviously struggling with low self esteem. His existence is to make everyone around him feel dumb, and that he is superior. A true narcissist in every sense of the definition.

All that said, he has always been there for anyone in the family… mostly monetarily, or for the “I told you so” advice. He’s demonstrated somewhat unconditional love. But his love isn’t normal. He had a bad childhood, and was abused at an early age by a “boarder”, not family. So, he has a lot of emotional baggage that’s been handed down, unfortunately.

My father outlived both my mom, and his second wife who passed about 4 years ago. Both my mom and stepmom, were pretty spiritual. Not in a very devotional way. But, convicted in Jesus. Don’t know how they ended up with my dad? I had a dream of my stepmom standing in the water, at my dad’s waterfront home, crying out that she, “had no control of what my dad was saying!” I thought the message was for him… but as time went on, I realized that message was for me! She, Grace, was the ONLY person in his life that could “control” my dad. And now she is gone.

Thank you again Bob, for your wonderful compliments! I can’t see the trees, from the forest at this point. I’m just trying to keep on. I would feel like a failure to him, God and myself if I quit. Plus, he would have no one but hired people to listen to him struggle with his demise. His loneliness is what is really killing him. He might be afraid to die, but more afraid to be alone. I’ve always had the premonition that he would have a horrible end, in that he would be terrified. I’ve also always had the dream that we would meet and embrace in Heaven…and he would say: “son, I was sick down there.” And… I would say the same thing back to him, “so was I dad.” Here’s hoping one day, we all shake our sicknesses, whatever they may be. God’s blessings and Love, Ron

[gbob]

@ronedee

He’s certainly riding my back, but he’s responsible for his own redemption & salvation

I laughed out loud at this one. Sounds like something I would say. And no, you didn’t bring back pain. God has forced me to forgive both parents, not that I wanted to but He said it was necessary… Good luck Ron. I will be praying for you and your father.

[SkovandOfMitaze (Mi)]

I don’t believe in a single food as s cure all or by cutting out a single food that it will make you suddenly get batter, outside of allergies anyways.

I do believe that a person’s overall diet and lifestyle can improve or worsen their immune system which is alter their gut biome and many other things. Such as a diet with more fruits and vegetables has the potential to be better than a diet with a lot saturated fat and little fruits and vegetables. I have never studied it out, and hae only read snippets of it in books. Even though the books were often written by medical doctors and nutritionists. I have read that your health can possibly affect genes being turned on or off or compromising how it works out. But I don’t know anywhere near enough to be even a amateur.

With that said I agree that when our time is coming, we should weigh the implications of pursuing this or that theory on what may be a miracle pill. I think at one end we need to do that so that science can keep being pushed further and further. On the other hand we don’t need to go crazy in some hope we can have this form of eternal life and escape death through technology. It’s coming for us all and through Christ we will have eternal life.

I have some of my own thoughts on how I want to face death. My fear of death is not me dying. I’m at peace with it and I do have my faith in Christ and to me death is as the proverb says. This flesh is just a seed and once it’s in the ground it’s one step closer to budding into the new form and final form God has for me whatever it is and I will be in a place of just goodness and I will be surrounded by loved ones who followed after God and the rest of the church and we are all in proximity of our god and Savior.

So what scares me about death, and what I have a hard time keeping faith in is my loved ones who will be left on earth. I hate the thought that my son won’t have me to help train and guide him. I hate the thought that my fiancée could outlive me and be a widow and what if she’s sick and has no one that will be there every second of the day to care for her. To make her tea, to take out the trash. To help her when she’s scared at night and so on. That’s what scares me about death. It’s why I wish I could outlive my loved ones the exception to the next generation. I Know I can handle the pain of living alone with just bittersweet memories. I know
I would rather die after my fiancée because I know I would rather it be me to suffer without her than her without me and I know my faith won’t be broken. But we can’t control that and we must have faith God will keep them better than we will.

On a lesser note I also know that when it’s time for me to die I also don’t believe I’ll chase expensive crazy possibilities. I have seen men cling to life and when they die they died with a massive debt that fell onto their wives and kids. I won’t allow that to happen. If I die first I won’t allow my money to be burned up and leave them with nothing. Especially if by remaining alive I would be a financial burden. Even though I have a double standard it’s simply how I feel.

I also am sickened by the funeral industry in many ways. I have friends who became funeral directors and morticians and they have told me terrible stories of things they have seen and things they have done. Such as one of them was taught to pre I review the family members prior to them getting to the shop during the process. They will ask questions like what was the persons favorite color and what we’re things they don’t like. Let’s say they were told the recently deceased liked the color blue a lot and really liked plants. But they hated yellow. They find out how tall is the person. So when the family comes to the showroom they have cheap yellow coffins that are a inch to short and have really nice expensive coffins that are blue and maybe have a plant emblem on it. The yellow coffin my be a inch to short and when it’s brought up they mention well bones can be broken for the dead to fit. So the family deceived into they can have a nice big blue coffin that’s $7,000 or a $3,000 yellow coffin where their dead one had to have their leg bones broke so they can be adjusted into it and so on. To me that’s disgusting. I also would rather have a much greener funeral. I don’t want one where tons of toxic chemicals are pumped into my body and then stuck in the ground.

If it was possible I would be dumped naked on a mountain top and left for food for the eagles like some Mongolians do. I know that probably won’t be possible and so what I want is to simply be buried in a way like ancient people often were. I just want to be in a cloth and buried in the ground and decompose into the soil and be eaten by insects and worms and my energy and nutritional corpse be food for flora, fauna, and fungi. It’s cheaper, it’s less toxic, and it’s more beneficial to nature. I have even seen I can have a permit to be buried on my own property and have a section set adobe as a private cemetery. I’m seeing green cemeteries that works as natural preserves and botanical gardens popping up also. That’s the routes and thoughts I have and want to go personally.

[gbob]

@SkovandOfMitaze

I also am sickened by the funeral industry in many ways. I have friends who became funeral directors and morticians and they have told me terrible stories of things they have seen and things they have done. Such as one of them was taught to pre I review the family members prior to them getting to the shop during the process. They will ask questions like what was the persons favorite color and what we’re things they don’t like. Let’s say they were told the recently deceased liked the color blue a lot and really liked plants. But they hated yellow. They find out how tall is the person. So when the family comes to the showroom they have cheap yellow coffins that are a inch to short and have really nice expensive coffins that are blue and maybe have a plant emblem on it. The yellow coffin my be a inch to short and when it’s brought up they mention well bones can be broken for the dead to fit. So the family deceived into they can have a nice big blue coffin that’s $7,000 or a $3,000 yellow coffin where their dead one had to have their leg bones broke so they can be adjusted into it and so on. To me that’s disgusting. I also would rather have a much greener funeral. I don’t want one where tons of toxic chemicals are pumped into my body and then stuck in the ground.

Funerals are expensive and made more expensive by the grief and guilt of the survivors, which is often taken advantage of by the funeral home. My wife and I have planned everything now for both of us. When they offered us upgraded items, we could say no, the simple cheap thing is ok. lol. So, now, everything is paid for and they will take over and follow our instructions when we go. One industry not likely to go broke in a pandemic is the funeral homes, so I am pretty sure they will be there to carry out our desires. This is the way to do it for the sake of your family. But, if one lives a gypsy life like I did, moving 16 times in my life, I had to wait until I was where I knew the end was coming before finalizing the plans.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@gbob

My wife and I have planned…

We did you one better. Not that our plans necessarily will come to fruition, but we are whole body donors to UNMC, as were my parents to Georgetown U. med. school. I called just last week to see if the COVID-19 situation changed anything, and he said not yet. They don’t want bodies that have died from it, not because there is any danger after they have been embalmed, but because people are nervous about it (the cadavers go all over – to Creighton and the other campuses for A&P classes). I suppose they may have to reveal the cause of death.