On the Apocalypses of the Bible (Again)

Faith & Science Conversation
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After reviewing the evidence I think it’s time to admit that the Book of Daniel predicts the end of the world during the reign of Antiochus Epiphanes and that Revelation predicts the end of the world very soon after it’s written during the late first century or early second century Roman Empire and that these things did not happen.

I don’t think that this is a problem for Christianity though because of what’s written in this book Amazon.com

Basically what the book argues is two things, 1. that prophecy is conditional based upon the reaction of the people prophecized to, and 2. That it is part of the Jewish context of the Bible to have the end predicted soon but then have it delayed and this kind of tension or conflict was inherent to the Jewish worldview.

Thus it should not be surprising when the end is predicted in the Bible, as it was three times and it is delayed further. As for what to do with these prophecies and why they are in the Bible, Paul deals with the unfulfilled prophecies of Daniel 11:35-45 by putting them in the future in 2 Thessalonians 2 with the man of lawlessness, so it’s safe to say that all unfulfilled prophecies await future fulfillment which would make the futurist reading of Revelation correct.

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The first prophecy regarding “the end of the world” (as we know it) is contained in Genesis 1-2. The seven days of creation is a framework for understanding God’s 7000 year plan for man’s redemption. This prophecy is still valid and the day of the Lord is approaching.

As far as the prophecies in Daniel, it is possible you may be focused on the wrong ones. I believe the most important prophecies in the book of Daniel are the ones pointing to the nation of Israel being scattered for 2520 years and then being regathered…IN THE LAST DAYS.

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2520 Prophetic Years X 360 days = 907,200 days or 2483 years, 285 days

2520 Prophetic years after the decree of Cyrus in 537BC, the nation of Israel was reestablished on May 14, 1948…THE TIME OF THE END.

also

2520 Prophetic years after the decree of Darius in 518BC, Israel regained control of Jerusalem on June 7, 1967.

The end was not predicted and delayed.
The end is still coming right on schedule.

I know this is a complex, controversial topic and it can be challenging to unlearn the bad theology we’ve learned along the way, but that’s why we are here.

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umm…

you know that the destruction of Jerusalem occurred 20 years prior to the book of Revelation actually being written right???

How a man can say make futuristic prophecies talking about end times 20 years after the events…i think you need to have someone who understands biblical history, theology and timelines to better explain the events to you again.

To point you in the right direction…

  1. John wrote Revelation on the Isle of Patmos under the reign of Ceasar Domitian

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  1. I could also go into great detail about why the books of Daniel and Revelation should be studied together…but unless you understand type/antitype prophecies in the bible, it would be a very long and disjointed discussion on these forums (due to distractions from idiot replies from individuals who also do not understand it)…
  2. Truly understanding them requires formalised bible studies that take many hours to fully understand (quite often seminars on the books of Daniel and Revelation are done weekly over a period of months…so these forums are probably not the place for that). I would suggest that there are plenty of resources on the topic…from all angles, however, i can categorically state, the Antiochus Epiphanese claims are highly problematic (if not to begin with one should remind you that the only time Antiochus attempted to invade Israel, he got sent packing with his tail between his legs shortly thereafter. He never actually succeeded in extending the Selucid empire during his reign, that had already been achieved before he took the throne. During his reign the kingdom began to decline.
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I didn’t even mention the Temple of Jeruselum so I have no idea what you’re on about.

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The rather divergent interpretations that Clovis and RevelationVBS provide both come from assuming that the passages tell us the time of the end in a calendar sense. Yet Jesus specifically said that no one knows the time. Daniel foresees another secular kingdom beyond the Greek as well as time involved in establishing the heavenly kingdom beyond that. The wild variation in conclusions about the dates suggests that the Bible is not telling us when, but rather that we should always be alert to living wisely and being prepared for our own end.

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From the 70 weeks prophecy it was possible to calculate when the Messiah would come the first time. In Luke 19:42 as Jesus is approached Jerusalem, he wept over it because the vast majority had not paid attention to prophecy and as a result they did not recognize the day of their salvation.

But that was not the case for all Israel. There was a faithful remnant of Jews out in the wilderness, who took prophecy seriously, had done the calculations and expected the Messiah to come in 32AD. They even left a scroll in cave 11 at Qumran that shows they understood that the Melchiezadek(Teacher of Righteousness) would come and die for the sins of the people.

So when Jesus says “No man knows the day and the hour” what is He talking about?

Is He saying that we can know absolutely nothing about end times events?

Or is He talking about something specific?

In the OT Israel is portrayed as the unfaithful wife of YHWH.
Isa 54:5-6; Jer 2:2, 3:14; Eze 16:8; Hos 1:2, 2:19-20

In the NT the church is portrayed as the faithful bride of Christ watching for her groom’s return.
2 Cor 11:2; John 3:29; Matt 9:15; Rev 21:2, 22:17

We are betrothed to Christ but we are waiting for the Father to tell the Son to go get His bride for the marriage supper of the Lamb.

In Matthew’s gospel Jesus talks about “not knowing the day and hour” twice; once in chapter 24 and again in chapter 25.

In chapter 24, the context of “not knowing the day and hour” is “Now learn the parable of the fig tree”. The context is “you can’t know the day and the hour, but the fig tree(Israel, 1948) is the sign that the season(of His coming for the bride) is coming”.

In chapter 25, the context of “not knowing the day and hour” is the parable of the foolish and wise virgins(10 brides maids, not the bride).
In Matthew 25:13 Jesus says:
‘Watch therefore, [look for the signs of the season]
for ye know neither the day nor the hour
wherein the Son of man [bridegroom]
cometh.‘ [for bride]

Again, the context was a parable about weddings.
‘In my Father’s house are many mansions: [rooms]
if it were not so, I would have told you.
I go to prepare a place for you. [bridechamber]
And if I go and prepare a place for you,
I will come again, and receive you unto myself; [the rapture]
that where I am, there ye may be also. ‘ [Father’s house]

When Jesus says “No man knows the day and the hour” what is He talking about?
He is talking about the rapture of the church(the bridegroom coming for the bride).
He is not talking about the tribulation, the Messiah’s second coming or the millennium.

This lines up nicely with what the angel said in Daniel 12:4
“But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book [2520 prophecies]
**UNTIL the time of the end. ** [1948]
many shall run to and fro, [Israel would be scattered and regathered]
and knowledge shall increase.” [The Dead Sea Scrolls are the key that unlocks]

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Sounds like you are getting some interesting responses to your post, Clovis. I just started a class on Revelation–taught by a professor at a local evangelical college. This means that i am just learning. But we did get a lecture that when God says ‘soon’ --as in the first 3 verses of Revelation 1 — it may refer to the divine versus the human way of looking at things. What’s soon if you have lived forever? The book is a ‘revelation’ (hence the name) of things that have "already’ been set in motion by the crucifixion and resurrection, and also points inevitably to judgment…That last word should not be anyone’s favorite thought —but it’s coming somewhere along the way…

  1. Daniel is a great book that covers a range of situations. I have never heard of the idea that “prophecy” --at least the sort of “end times prophecy” you are pointing to – is at all conditional upon “the reaction of the people prophesied to.” Prophecy is a statement of what will eventually occur—the overcoming of evil and remaking of things entirely.

In the end, there are various visions and prophetic events (presumably prophetic) in Daniel…and then there are human beings trying to apply them to their own times and circumstances–and political perspectives. The truth may be that our timeframe is limited to 80 + years while God may be thinking entirely differently

…Some have in fact said that Antiochus IV Epiphanes was the Antichrist…but there are reasons for saying he was “not” the one to whom the prophetic utterances of Daniel referred…For example, his death is not “gotten right” if Ant Epi IV is the one meant in the prophecy. And the third invasion of Egypt was not something that Ant Epi IV did… Not long ago, a writer declared that the prophecies about Antichrist actually were fulfilled by Caligula. You will have to read on that yourself.

You actually could say that a lot of dictators and tyrants along the way could have (and likely did) look like Antichrist --Adolf Hitler anyone? Stalin? Genghis Khan? It certainly depends on whether it was YOUR time period of history --and how those individuals impacted you and your family…Others say there is an interval between now and the real AC…others have said the Antichrist was Nero, Simon Magus (see Acts 8)…Muhammad…the Pope…and the Pope thought Martin Luther was the Antichrist…Isaac Newton wrote commentary with his interpretation of some of this — based on the political concerns of his era…that is, “the Empire of the Saracens” versus “the Empire of the Turks”…John Bunyan thought the Antichrist would be a woman…

Thus “the man of lawlessness” has characteristics that could fit any number of past and present individuals…the fact that one has not arisen wearing some sort of special hat (or mark on his/her forehead)…does not mean prophecies have failed.

I don’t think that we can say the Bible has predicted the end “three times” and then it was delayed. But we humans are certainly willing to speculate.

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There seems to be recurrent patterns in the way how the biblical scriptures and the ‘real’ history are connected. For example, Isaiah 7:14 tells that a maiden will give birth to a child who gets the name Immanuel. It was a prophecy that probably looked at the near future but, according to Christian interpretation, it also told about the coming Messiah, Yeshua (Jesus).
These recurring patterns are like layers upon each other. Each layer is unique history but at the same time, may show a pattern that is part of a larger story, the great plan of God.

Maybe the apocalypses in the Bible include similar type of recurring layers. For example, there have been many antichrists during the history as even John the Apostle wrote (1 John 2:18).
Another example is that the current political developments in the Middle East and Eurasia might lead to a loose coalition that resembles some descriptions of the forces attacking Israel in the Revelation. At the moment, the development is just a potential scenario (might happen) but anyhow interesting. Possibly not the ‘original’ event described in the Revelation but a layer of history that might follow a described pattern.

Focusing too heavily on the events described in the Revelation is probably not wise but if we approach the apocalypses and forward-looking prophecies as descriptions of potentially recurring patterns, that may give better insights to what has happened and may happen in the future.

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Inherently self-contradictory – the church gets “caught up in the air” at the Second Coming.

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The church is raptured before the tribulation.
Jesus returns to earth after the tribulation.

“In My Father’s house [not on Earth]
are many mansions;
if it were not so, I would have told you.
I go to prepare a place for you. [not on Earth]
And if I go and prepare a place for you, [not on Earth]
I will come again and receive you to Myself;
that where I am, [not on Earth]
there you may be also.” [not on Earth]
‭‭John‬ ‭14‬:‭2‬-‭3‬

Jesus comes before the tribulation and takes the bride to His Father’s house for the marriage supper of the Lamb.

“for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say,
‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭23‬:‭39‬

This happens at the end of the tribulation.
Israel as a nation collectively repents and calls upon the Messiah their father’s killed to rescue them from the antichrist.

“And I will pour on the house of David
and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem
the Spirit of grace and supplication;
then they will look on Me whom they pierced.
Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son,
and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.”
‭‭Zechariah‬ ‭12‬:‭10‬

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Ever read Jonah? The prophet gets pissed because the prophecy doesn’t happen.

Then there’s the time when David asked if something would happen, God said “Yes, it will”, so David took action and what God had said would happen didn’t occur.

To which I always point out that there is no “the Antichrist” in scripture, especially not in John’s Apocalypse. There is the category “antichrist”, but no particular single individual.
Which is related to a lot of prophecy, where there is a theme/role that various people fit to a fair degree without being the ultimate fulfillment.

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That makes two returns. There’s only one.

Which would mean that grace comes to an end at the start of this alleged “tribulation” – and I say alleged because Jesus speaks of tribulation as an ongoing aspect of the relationship between those who are His and unbelievers. The only other option is that Jesus has two brides.

The so-called “Rapture” is an event that can be found in ANE literature; it is when the faithful servants of a royal figure come out of a city to greet their lord and then march with him in to assert/reclaim his control over the city. It is not an event where Jesus returns but then turns back, it is an event where all the living believers join Him as one of His hosts (armies), at most a brief pause. Keep in mind that He will already have other hosts (armies) with Him, the host(s) of angels, the host of Old Testament saints/believers, and the host of departed New Covenant believers. The latter will be joined by living believers, making a ‘trinity’ of hosts/armies.
The Second Coming is the reality of which those ANE events are types.

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Interesting example about Jonah. Of course, he was annoyed because the people of Nineveh repented. The end-times AC stuff is predicated on presumption (foreknown) that the world that exists at that time is composed of hardcore humans who are dug in on their position.

As for Antiochus IV Epi and others — it will be interesting to see where this instructor falls on the matter. I am aware that many names for AC have been suggested…plus the view you name. I am going to be interested to see how this class goes.

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A common thinking behind this interpretation is that God would not let His owns to suffer in the tribulations. Yet, when we study the history of the church, the followers of Jesus have faced hard tribulations. Saints were too often persecuted, tortured or executed, and faithfulness in the persecutions was a witness of their faith.

If there are recurring patterns in this, the hopes of avoiding the tribulations (without dying before them) may be too optimistic.

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I’ve heard it justified on the basis of “these are those who have come out of the great tribulation”, but that rendering butchers the Greek. The Greek is Οὗτοί εἰσιν οἱ ἐρχόμενοι ἐκ τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης, which to get the sense can be rendered as “these are the coming-out-of-the-great-tribulation ones”, and it is all present tense, meaning that they are in the process of coming out – not skipping it, but enduring it and, as the following phrase suggests, doing so as martyrs (“Washing their robes in the Blood of Jesus” was something said of martyrs).
So rather than indicating that Christians escape, the verse is indicating that Christians suffer and die for their faith during this great tribulation.

It’s an interesting contrast: today many Christians want to avoid any suffering while the Christians of the first few centuries often sought martyrdom, considering it to be the greatest glory a Christian could experience since it was considered a participation in the sufferings of Christ.

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I have read of your particular version of the “Rapture” elsewhere. It’s an interesting projection. The concept of the Rapture as believed by many goes back to the visions of a young Glasgow, Scotland woman in 1831—and thus it spread because she influenced the man who influenced (eventually) the man who founded a large Bible college plus radio station and whose associates (one at least) went on to help found a large seminary in the Southern US. It’s all good, I suppose…but the history on the modern Rapture idea is quite recent.

And when I read that I have to ask what was going on culturally or theologically that this newer rendition caught hold. Big discussion topic for sure.

And I asked my instructor about your view on the Antichrist. He said “Your friend is perhaps partly right and partly wrong…” and then went into other things. I am enjoying the subject a bit…even if Revelation is NOT my favorite book of the Bible.

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LOL

That’s not a bad a summary when it comes to the grammar – the Greek can be taken as John discussing a conceptual, archetypal figure, but also as a specific antichrist in terms of an epitome, an ultimate standout from a set. But the big clincher is that no apocalyptic literature speaks of an antichrist.

I tend to agree with the church if the East: Revelation shouldn’t be in the canon, despite some of the gems it contains; it belongs in the category of “edifying reading for the mature”.

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