Thanks for the detailed response. Since what I asked was a heavy question, it might have been better to just research it online.
I don’t have a problem with the bread and wine “being” the body of Christ (symbolically). Jesus says just as much: “This is my blood, the blood of the New Testament” “This is my body broken down for you.” etc. etc. but putting on all the garb, and walking down the aisle, is a hard thing for me to imagine myself doing… 
-Tim
I was born Catholic. Not fundamentalist. At a young age in a Catholic school I realized on my own that this faith and religion stuff was not true. I renounced my faith as a child to the shock of other kids in my school. That was the last time I stated my take on faith and God. I kept my mouth shut just so not to hear all the diatribe from the faithful. I still went to church every Sunday because I had to. And the entire time in church was spent kneel, sit, stand, kneel, sit, stand… yay, its communion time, far out… church is almost over and I can go home and play with my non-Catholic friends. One day at 13 I said, “no” I am not going. That was the end of that save for going on the Xmas and TG as a gesture of kindness to my mother. It is later on that I joined my wife’s religion for a sundry of reasons. That religion is SDA. The antithesis of Catholic. Funny how the idea of “confession” where for years I “lied through my teeth” to the priest because my first thought as a child was, “who in the hell is this dude, I am not telling him squat.”, and lo and behold the SDA doctrine says that’s all a bunch of bunk. FYI, neither my wife or I were practicing, we just figured it would be best for our daughter in womb. We got more involved and drank more of the kool-aid and also her upbringing came to the fore and we became more like the family (on the religion part that is) she grew up in. Worship time twice a day and praying and so on and so forth.
So I take the SDA journey. Oh, it’s not more of a cult than any other religion. SDA’s much to the chagrin I am sure of many here dictates you “read the bible” and “read it alot”. Thus why I can extract from memory many of the verses within. Before that, like many here, I never opened a bible and the only bible I ever had was the wee Psalms + NT book kids often get in Catholic schools. Oh, don’t forget that rosary. The Catholic church makes sure you don’t open that bible much, that is for sure. I guess Mr. Martin Luther (who happened to say reason is the greatest enemy of faith) would be pleased to know that the Catholics did not change their ways after his excoriating writings. To SDAs Catholics are nothing but a bunch of pagan wanna be Xians. Xmas is the winter solstice absconded by Constantine. Hell is a place defined by the council that culminates in Trent as well as a mythical place the Greeks made famous. So again a pagan notion of hell is absconded. Easter is the Pagan bring in the spring hijacked celebration (rabbits == fertility)… and so on and so forth. Ooooh, how could I forget. SUNDAY… “Sun”-Day… sun-worship-day. versus the SDA doctrine based on the 4th commandment (that is kinda ignored by the Catholic writings that most Catholics read)… say SABBATH is THE DAY of worship from the foundation of the earth, you know Genesis 2 …
You see that you Xian Pagan heathens… y’all are a buncha God ignoring wanna be chosens… you worship on sunday.
Guess what, on the side. Worshipping the sun is about the only religion that I could consider as valid because without that Sun life does not exist on this planet. This planet would not exist without that Sun. This solar system was formed because of that Sun finally, via the force of gravity, firing up her fusion reactor that touches our face everyday with photons that take 10 million years to escape from her and reach us 93 million miles away.
So I suppose all the non SDAers are more into reality that many an atheist would suppose. You got the day right. And you have the name of the day right… just that… well the rest…
Oh, the eucharist is pagan too. Goes back to the Egyptians eating the flesh of Osiris, and those sun worshipping heathens of the Americas, they ate the flesh of their deity much to the surprise and cheering of the ever so practicing faithful Catholic Conquistadores.
But then, those dinosaurs and photons just kept bugging my mind. So I never ever went on any evangelising stints with my SDA brethren because deep down, I knew it was all bull. But I drank that kool-aid quite a bit. But my reason still raised up from time to time to question and ponder. Why did Samson need to put 300 innocent foxes to death by fire to kill wipe out Philistine crops? Now I have a hunch why my fellow Catholic and Xian acquaintances would often, much to my absolute horror (I never witnessed it as I kept my distance from such folk, and I tell you if I did, there would have been some severely bleeding noses), enjoyed catching cats and lighting their tails on fire. They were just following the example of the great Samson. Yet another conundrum of the Xian fables.
What I have noticed here is that the believers has their own personal model of God. Al wants it kept secret from his elders what he truly thinks of the wafer. Awesome that your daughter joins you though. Even if I am an atheist, having your children willingly join you in a effort you yourself enjoy is always a super good thing. Eddie has his God. Ashley has her God. I had my God… yes… this nasty little atheist surely did have his model of God…
My model of God, after trying to reconcile the various craziness in the OT and NT, I came to my conclusion that God, since He is so loving, something the SDA religion espoused vehemently, is that we Xians may be surprised at how lenient God will be after the second coming. We will see folks in heaven that we never expected to see there. Again, that was, was was was, my model of God.
Now my model of God does not exist. But that does not mean I cannot, via much experience, empathise and put my self into the place of a believer and then read The Bible with a more open mind and see… holy crap, this whole Xian religion is based foundationally on “sin” and “guilt” and “suffering” and seeking the love of a God that cursed all life because two of His creations misbehaved one time.
And the only response to the topic has been Al, thank you Al, who says… “it’s allegory” because to not say that means his model of God is not correct.
A nit that shows your bias. Aristotle was a philosopher before Christianity existed so therefore using the term pagan is biased. Aristotle was a philosopher is non biased. Aristotle was a philosopher who lived in Greece X years ago would be even more descriptive.
Oh it was much more than this in 1960’s Catholicism. The seven year old little girls must be dress in virginal white dresses with white veils on their heads. They have to march with hands folded in pray to
receive the actual body and blood of a man who died 2000 years ago. I cringe when I see that today.
It is worse psychological child abuse than my Friday salami sandwich story. It frightens children while their parents take photos along the aisles. Madness. I am with Reformation Christians on this - say it is a symbol, a representation, a spiritual Jesus, whatever, but don’t freak the kids (especially the girls) out.
Which part of the bible is in error? How do you decide that?
How does one know about Christ? By the bible, one way or another it is by the bible. The now errant bible. Oh and wait most of the error is in the OT or is fable or allegory or myth or legend. But not the NT. The NT is the truth. Really?
Jesus cites Psalms 8:2 via Mat 21:16. And in Mat 12:3 talks about king David.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2nd Timothy 3:16
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.: Mat 5:18
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Rev 22:19
How do Xians learn of Christ. Via the bible which is either inerrant or errant, or is it both those states, but which part is wrong and which is right. Xians learn about Christ and his sacrifice from the bible, one way or another. Some by reading it, others by hearing it, others by the teachings of clergy…etc… but ultimately it comes from the bible. Thus why the Catholic church was overtly hostile and violent to those like Tindale. To this day the Catholic and many other Xian denominations prefer their patrons to just listen to the words of the man/woman at the alter. And most followers are just fine with that because every time they crack that holy book open they get confused or bored. And if they hit all the begats and lineages that go on and on and on that usually ends the cracking open of the book right then and there.
Hence most Xians think the tree in the garden is the tree of knowledge… and the leaders don’t mind them being fearful of that. As Martin Luther says, “Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.”
The greatest enemy that faith has… Xian model of God and the Word is devised by reason? Hmmmm
[Gen 2:16-17 KJV] 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
[Gen 3:16-19 KJV] 16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed [is] the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.
[Gen 3:21-24 KJV] 21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
[Gen 3:14 KJV] 14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
In summary… I will play God.
Yo Adam, in the day you eat of that tree you will die.
Yo A&E what is this that thou hast done? Did you eat of the tree I forbid you to eat?
Yo A&E since you have disobeyed me this one time, you will not die today, you will die later on after you have lived and suffered.
Yo A, your suffering is to till the ground and when you die to become the dust from whence I made thee.
Yo E, since you did this eating of the forbidden you will give birth in pain and always kiss the butt of A.
Yo A&E, to cover you I will kill these animals in this garden that had not death until you jacked up.
Yo A&E, get out of here you are banished lest you eat of the tree of life and become like us/me you know who.
Yo Serpent. Guess what. You lose. Your head will be crushed by E’s child. I am not going to tell you when, A&E and all their descendants will yearn for the the head crusher and suffer and die many times over before the savior comes. But I promise he will come and you, you nasty belly crawling thing I made, you will lose. But before you lose, make sure you torture all these A&E descendants with enlightenment and knowledge and temptations and sex and debauchery and shellfish and wine and spirits and dancing and… aaa you know I know what you will do, so go to it and make your plans for Cain.
Yo A&E and all 50,000,000,000 to come. I love you.
Death for all life forms begins after the fall and by your God’s hand.
That thar along with the “crush the head of the serpent and bruise the heal of Eve’s progeny” is the beginning of the promise of a savior and why the Hebrews set up their method of animal sacrifice and the spilling of magic blood and burning the sacrifice for the pleasure of God because that whole ritual elludes to the coming… “Christ”.
Thank you, Sy_Garte. And ninksink, you ask good and necessary questions. Keep asking, keep seeking. I have faith you’ll find.
Hi Patrick
There are lots of things I could not imagine happening within the church 50 yrs. ago–many of the changes are for the good. Some not so good. The three young priests that married each of our three kids (and many more who were close friends) left the priesthood to become husbands and biological fathers. That, of course, made them unfit for the ministry. After all, Jesus chose only men to be the 12 apostles, didn’t he?
What I miss in our parish now is the kind of intellectual stimulation that I am finding in BioLogos. During my more active years in science I was in contact with many agnostic/atheistic scientists with whom I had many stimulating discussions about life and its possible meaning. At that time I thought that all Evangelicals and Fundamentalists were hide-bound and considered science as antithetical and change as always threatening. After a few months joining in these Forum discussions, I see how wrong I was.
And yet, after a half dozen years of presenting the subject of Science & Religion to the adult Conformation classes in our parish, I learned something quite valuable. Most people, in our parish at least, find religion a valuable moral guide because of its emotional appeal, and to them,any attempt to justify it by rational or intellectual means diminishes its value in the long run. Put in oversimplified terms, the vision of Christ hanging on the cross combined with the idea of Original Sin is more effective motivation for sticking to the Straight & Narrow path than the kind of rational analysis we see in this forum. It seems that the Catholic church believes that the majority of humankind is stuck at Stage 1 or 2 on the Piaget Scale of Cognitive Development (‘misbehave and you’ll get spanked’) And perhaps she is right. Perhaps we can get “too smart” and think God is unnecessary. Some of my closest colleagues think that way, and they don’t know what they are missing!
Al Leo
Al,
It is true that for some people the fear of punishment keeps them moral. But then they need to surrender their individual moral reasoning to some other authority. How about each person being their own moral authority? Of course we have our laws, customs, parental guidance to “help” each of us get the correct answer. But ultimately it is each of us that defines what is right and what is wrong in society. We just had another mass shooting. So we will now have the same gun control discussions that we always do at this time. I think it is time to let reason dominate the discussion and do good for goodness sake.
I use the mind God gave me. I believe each of us is as open to inspiration as were the people of the OT, if we choose to be. Am I orthodox? No.
Jesus was a Jew speaking to Jews. Would we be discussing his life today if he had not appealed to his audience of his day? Personally, I do not look for moral guidance from what I read of Abraham (the OT clearly states he pimped Sarah to the pharaoh and to Abimelech), or of David (at least I know that God can forgive adultery and murder). Nor do I believe in a God who is so angry at the humanity He created that he would destroy them in a world wide flood. So, bottom line: Yes, I pick and choose!! I am deeply moved by some of the Psalms, especially No. 139. If David was its author, fine with me.
As I was growing up in the Catholic Faith, I was not aware that the church did not encourage its members to read the Bible on their own. The clergy picked out the more ‘innocuous’ passages to be read at Mass, and even then the priest was expected to perform an exegesis (pre-digest) to prevent any misunderstanding. As I grew older I wanted to make these interpretations on my own, and, as the Vatican had predicted, I became somewhat of a Maverick Catholic.
But, unlike you, ninksink, I remained open to God entering into and guiding my life. Actually, He made it easy. At 19 I was left for dead on a frozen field in Alsace, a mile behind German lines on a cold winter night, left to freeze or bleed to death from a grenade wound that broke a 3" hole in my skull. Somehow I survived on my own. On my own? Well, no help was forthcoming from my ‘buddies’, and none from the German who wounded me. Who then? The doctors who treated me later said there had to be someone that helped me. There was. And that Someone has stayed with me ever since. So my Weltanschauung is rather unique, and I don’t blame anyone for questioning it. But I certainly embrace reason as essential to it.
Al Leo
And don’t forget the Abraham Issac child abuse thing. Seems to me an awful guy to start a religion on.
Clearly Catholicism didn’t want ordinary people reading the bible. Look how much resistance to translate it into different languages. Is the whole Protestant Reformation all about that. Even now, the message is Read it at your own risk. Be careful it is confusing. Leave it to us (including Pope) to define official meaning and doctrine.
Ninksink, I do not attempt to model God. Your attempts to do so appear to have resulted in rage and disillusionment. Through no effort or ‘goodness’ on my part, God has become my friend who is at my side every day. That sounds so treacley sweet when written down–but it is true! You will find it corny that I believe that the German who fired a rifle grenade hoping to kill me did me the greatest of favors instead. All a matter of luck? Possibly. But if I am deceiving myself, it surely has led to a happy life. God bless!
Al Leo
Well there He goes again - cursing a whole species/genus/family of animals for the sin of one talking/possessed individual
Why so judgmental on ninksink? He is a wonderful person and has a pretty sharp intellect.
.
Eddie, the only Catholic I ever met who could explain Catholic theology as well as you do is Tom Lenert who, as director of Rreligious Education, invited me to give presentations of Science & Religion at our adult confirmation classes. He held a Ph.D. in Theology and was a parish priest in the Phillipines until he met a nun who also felt the calling to become a parent. He was relieved of his priestly vows, they married and raised a family. The church hierarchy in Rome aren’t blind! How can they let this sort of thing happen?? If he had first become an Episcopalian priest, the Roman church would have welcomed him as a married priest. Does the light of the Holy Spirit shine down only on the occupant of Peter’s chair? Even Pope Francis, who appears to be a fresh breeze, does not seem capable of dispersing the stagnant air of Male Celibate Tradition that has enveloped Rome for centuries.
Al Leo
“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6
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