No. Adam and Eve were not the first humans

Faith & Science Conversation
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touché

No need to apologize, my intent was not to tweek anyone.

I am just repeating what the Bible says the Biblical God wants. Condensing and paralleling and summarizing the main theme. If you have any specific questions as to what I claim I found God to say in the Bible, feel free to make a new thread and address it there.

My intent is not to jab at you so I again apologize for it being interpreted as such. It is just such a real thing or truth in my life, I can’t explain it. My belief requires some givens.

  1. You believe that God did create the universe and us, so He knows what He designed us for.
  2. He designed us for Him, and that is what completes us, and without Him, we are incomplete.

I was not intending to speak this as a fact, rather my beliefs. But I genuinely believe it to the core of my being. But it makes logical senses to me to. If there was no God to create us, and it was just random adaptations, life seems so meaningless and pointless to me. I need to take care of myself, because there is no one who cares for me no matter what. I am no longer an individual blessed with my health and intelligence and skills, who I can use to help others in thanks. It’s is luck of my genes, and all thanks to my efforts. But what is the point of life or the meaning of life? I am some what curious, but its also sad to me, though I am not intending pity.

If you are honest with yourself and find fulfillment in life, and not just live distraction by distractions afraid to face yourself and be honest, then you don’t need God. I do believe that everyone needs God and they are lying to themselves if they say they don’t, but not trying to jab or berate, it is just that much of a truth to me.

You shouldn’t be offended at how I live though even if that means how I believe others are designed to live. I am not forcing my opinions or beliefs on you, and I definitely don’t think we should legislate based off of our religious beliefs. I don’t think any less of you. I just know who I was without God and and how complete and peaceful and meaningful life is with God. His glorious creations are awe inspiring, His love is so powerful, more powerful than anything. Sorry, I know I just keep repeating myself and it probably sounds like nonsense to you.

I guess my words are more for an Gnostic who is seeking truth rather than an Atheist who is not and believes they have it as far as seek and you will find. To the Atheist I would say if they ever have an emptiness they find within themselves, that God can fill it. But if you have no emptiness, than there is no need for you to have God.

It basically comes down to pride. Do I think I am (or want to be) in control of my life, or do I want God to be in control of my life. I want God to be in control of my life, as I believe He knows what is best, as I believe He created us, so obviously knows what is best for us. That is all salvation/conversion is. You want God to me ruler/Lord of your life, and can’t due to our sin, but through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus, you can now ask God to be Lord/King/Ruler of your life.

All I meant by that is one of the main goals in life isn’t to convert, that is the ends, my purpose is the means. In the means, I am as Paul says a Jew to the Jews. I might have said it in a different thread, but I am on here to be a biologos to the biologos.
Continuing the discussion from Cain's wife and ofther humans:

That is why I joined this forum. Jew for the Jews a biologos, for the biologos…1 cor 9:20.

God has given me a real interests in these things, so as to participate in dialogue and make relationships with. If I just came on here and shared the gospel…as good as it is, would not resonate with many. This is why Jesus always related to those and healed people and ate with people first, and THEN, shared the gospel with them. We were created to be a lovimg people, that make relations with others and relationship with God. I enjoy all the education from others, I am learning a lot, I still have my own theory on other things, but that is just how I relate ( genuine interest thoug, not false relations or interests), and share the love of God to all.

If God uses me or my words or insights to help an active member or a casual internet browser and uses my words to reveal Him to them, amen. If not, I still live my life for the means, not the ends. God is in charge of the results/ends, it’s my job to attempt to honor Him and give Him glory with my means/present actions. I feel to often people want to control the ends, and (possibly unintentionally) make themselves or their logic a god, thinking they can and should convert people and live by the ends.

That is the purpose for the ‘books’ as you say, I’ve written, the means, the every day life. That I can glorify God through me using the girts He blessed me with to glorify Him directly (in praise), or to glorify Him in loving others. I have some theories on certain Genesis accounts, and it is neat to learn and I have already adapted my thoughts and had my mind changed and learned things from joining this forum, but this is all just a part of life, the extremely minute details. My core beliefs and the reason for our lives is not something that I really think needs debated by Christians on here, as we pretty much all agree on the core important things.

But lack of knowledge is ignorance, not delusion. I am to love the Lord with all my mind, which requires me to learn and explore and as iron sharpens iron, utilize my gifts and those He brings in my life to better understand and know Him. I agree with the scientific method and that is why the big bang and evolution is a very logical route to believe and that the Genesis accounts weren’t quote as literal as the church often teaches.

I believe science strengthens faith. When science says something that alters my previous beliefs, it allow me to re-read and understand God and the Bible more clearly and see the majesty of how God designed this world and how amazing of a Designer He was. Learning that the moon moves the tides so the water doesn’t go stagnant and kill everyone. Learning that water is the only element that expands before it freezes which in turn helps it float, which in turn helps it insulate the water below it so it doesn’t become a thick chuck of ice killing and freezing every thing it. The more complex I learn evolution is and the vastness of our universe, the more glory I see go to the Creator/Engineer/Designer.

I do not believe there is a single thing out there that will ever prove God, nor disprove Him. But anything that does get discovered, just amplifies my faith in God. Every time.

Good point

You must have misunderstood me, this is what I thought I was saying? Did I saw he knows everything?

Very good point, I never thought of that before.

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On the reading minds thing… Nathan knew exactly what David had done and plotted to do when he confronted him on the Bathsheba affair. I think you could probably find lots of examples of OT prophets revealing supernaturally granted knowledge of people and events. Just a thought that occurred to me, because it was the Samaritan woman at the well story that came up with my kids Bible work yesterday. Her response to Jesus telling her “everything she ever did” was to say “he must be a prophet,” not “he must be God.” So that got me thinking about what other prophets in Jewish history knew when they confronted people.

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Interesting question. And if Jesus is the “prophet like Moses” that God promised to send, then Moses is the example we should consider. The relevant passages:

Deut 18:15, 18-19 The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you—from your fellow Israelites; you must listen to him. … I will raise up a prophet like you for them from among their fellow Israelites. I will put my words in his mouth and he will speak to them whatever I command. I will personally hold responsible anyone who then pays no attention to the words that prophet speaks in my name.

Ex. 33:11 The Lord would speak to Moses face to face, the way a person speaks to a friend.

Num. 12:6-8 The Lord said, “Hear now my words: If there is a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known to him in a vision; I will speak with him in a dream. My servant Moses is not like this; he is faithful in all my house. With him I will speak face to face, openly, and not in riddles; and he will see the form of the Lord.

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More good finds to support that, thanks.

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still-learning: I’m a science type. I love to figure out how phenomena occurred. Machines, processes, how we make decisions, it all fascinate me. When I read christian claims, I react the same way. How can a christian believe in something spectacularly impossible like rising from the dead? I want to know the logical progression of reason the christian uses. Its the scientific method: observe, question, hypothesis, experiment, measurement, conclusion. How can a christian operate daily with that fact-based method and still believe in a thing that is impossible?

I’ve pursued this for years and I’ve never found satisfactory explanation.*

Why do I keep probing? I don’t expect or want to convert a christian to anything else. I don’t want to antagonize. Just an explanation. I should bail on this - I get nowhere.

How can a person spend an entire life adhering 99.9% to reason and then toss it all and accept a claim with no evidence?

  • I once questioned an LDS higher-up and he perfectly summed up Mormonism (and by extension christianity). He didn’t convince me, but I appreciated his succinctness: faith first, facts second.
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Well … you found an answer that fit well with your particular faith regarding theistic religions anyway.

What else would the subjects of our beliefs be if not facts? You can stick to your guns on this, still_learning, and need not feel pressed into any unilateral modesty. Yes, we can be and are mistaken about things which is why your humility serves you well. We all need that, and we all here also need to boast in those things of which we are most sure (Truth, we call it). We bring forth the treasures from our hearts… And Truth is a highly prized treasure around here by believer and unbeliever alike even if we disagree over what all is included. Learning what to embrace even when empirical evidence may be unavailable for it, and what to hold provisionally for now, and what to reject is the great balancing act between conviction on the one hand and humility on the other. One side all mouth, the other all ears. One pushes for action and the other reflection. Each side is necessary in its season. Don’t let anyone entice you too far or too permanently toward one side or the other, and so away from your Spirit-led dance that gives each its due.

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There is a difference between impossible, and not proven/discovered yet.

Flight was impossible for how many thousand/billion years?

I love seeing how things work too. I have a very mechanical mind. More on the physics and mechanics side then biological side, but I am better educated in the former.

For me, conversion didn’t begin with biology more psychology or philosophy, but after conversion, even biology and physics now amplifies my faith.

  1. Having no moral zero is one reason for a god.
    2.How we got here, but more importantly, why we are here?
    3.Knowing how impressive and complex machines that are designed/engineered are and then learning how complex our biology is begs of a designer/engineer.

I think those 3 factors would make anyone a gnostic.

But then after being gnostic and seeking the answers or the truth to those, I believe God will do the rest and lead you to Him either through some logic like Dr. Francis Collins. When he participated in the human genome project and I think basically reason 3, lead him on a journey to God.

As far as which God, I first believe in the Creatir of the universe and provider of us all. So that basically rules out Taoism and Buddhism and others like. It narrows it to the monotheistic religions really. And I believe that Allah is also the Creator and is not confined the the Bible. But the only God that is loving and Created us to be with Him and sent His Son as a sacrifice to reconcile us is The Christian God of the Bible. Though I have heard of missionaries finding a remote people who saw the marvels of God in our everyday lives and universe and seemed God, who revealed Himself to them, who never heard of the Bible prior to the missionaries arrival. Mormons and Islam doesn’t have the same loving in control scriptures the Bible has. I believe unfortunately, just like many “Christians” (believe they are Christians due to inheritance or building attendance or good deeds, which is against the very book and God they claim to follow) just like Mullins are brainwashed to believe their book or what others tell them their book says and don’t think freely or question.

I attribute 100% logic/reason to my life. Again with those 3 questions/statements above. Once one comes to the logical conclusion of God, and He reveals Himself to you (and He will if you earnestly are searching for the unbiased truth) then it is an indescribable feeling of certainty/faith that comes to you. At this point, it is only logical to believe. And anything that appears to defy the Bible has a 2 choices. Either the interpretation is wrong, or the thing isn’t discovered yet.

Who knows if some mineral from Venus doesn’t raise people from the dead? Just like flight wasn’t discovered yet 1000 years ago, doesn’t make it impossible. That element or mineral might not be discovered yet, or it might not exist. But from those other 3 logical points of philosophy or psychology or complexity leads you to believe in that Creator, then if He did it once and is in control of that all, why couldn’t he do it again? It becomes very logical at this point, just not testable at this point and time. But during the rapture (when it is probably too late) you will see many rising from the dead and you can probably not test or repeat, but observe.

I wouldn’t even remotely compare the two religions. It’s not our place to convince anyone. Jesus never convinced anyone, He related with them, and met their needs, and when asked (seemed the truth) for a better life/way, He told them “I am the Way”.

We need to have an explaination for what we believe when asked, it we are never instructed to convince, that is Gid’s job to tug on their hearts and lead them to Him. Or which we can and are used as tools by God to explain His truths. But to “make a disciple” is to make a doctor. The student wants to be a doctor, the professor explains how if they want to become one, he doesn’t force him or convince him to be one a doctor. Just like we can’t nor should attempt to force or convince people of the love of God, rather show it.

God or Christianity is for those that want it, not those who (in my beliefs) lie to themselves and are fine without Him. But having love for neighbors is understandable you wouldn’t want them to not know God now or for eternity, so it is understandable (though not correct) that Christians attempt to convert and convince and take control the ends. But they forget or lack faith, that God is in control of the ends, we just need to worry about the means ;relaying to other, meeting their needs, and explaining the truth to them when they ask (from observing) why we have light inside us they wish they had.

I understand. It is just difficult on a logic based sight to make sure some know I am not stating facts. It invalidates and insults when one prentends to have all the answers with certainty vs. sharing beliefs. So I felt it necessary to qualify it, especially with his above post mentioning “jabs”.

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The apostles had a hard time believing it also.

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Mervin_Bitikofer: What beautiful writing! “the great balancing act between conviction on the one hand and humility on the other. " And: " One pushes for action and the other reflection”.

But I’m not sure what you mean. I don’t. Maybe I’m too small minded. I’m in the evidence/no evidence paradigm where decisions and beliefs rely on where the data points. It may point to action and reflection but to get there, one has to know a thing is true. True based on reason, not faith.

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still_learning: I will admit to being unsure of your arguments. You started this post stating “Flight was impossible for how many thousand/billion years?” but toward the end you stated, “Just like flight wasn’t discovered yet 1000 years ago, doesn’t make it impossible.”

Which is it, impossible or not yet discovered?

And who cares?

You wander across the spectrum of possibilities just like Trump. “I attribute 100% logic/reason to my life” and then “Having no moral zero is one reason for a god.” I don’t understand.

And further confusing me: “Mormons and Islam doesn’t have the same loving in control scriptures the Bible has”.

And this pisses me off: “God or Christianity is for those that want it, not those who (in my beliefs) lie to themselves and are fine without Him.” Christian arrogance pisses me off and only wedges the divide. I don’t lie to myself.

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Sorry for the unclear explanation. It would have been more clear if I said. Flight was THOUGHT to be impossible for how many… The point being, something thought to be impossible now, doesn’t make it impossible.

I don’t understand what you don’t understand there. Can you elaborate?

I can’t make sense of that either. Probably a combination between auto correct and missed word. Humans make mistakes in “speaking” even in textual form. But what I meant to say was…
Mormons and Islam doesn’t have the same loving God throughout their scriptures. They have the same beginning “God”, they claim to believe the genesis account up to the split of Abrams kids (Isaac and Ishmael). And Mormon’s claim to believe in the Bible. But both supplement or over write the Bible with newer revelation from a prophet who changes the original message. Christians have God Himself coming to earth, to demonstrate the Old Testament, and fulfill it and explains the original meaning behind it, and amplifies if, not change it.

This is the reason I @Mervin_Bitikofer said what he said and why I keep emphasizing as a belief and not fact.

I [quote=“Mervin_Bitikofer, post:69, topic:36569”]
What else would the subjects of our beliefs be if not facts?
[/quote]

I don’t think arrogance or arrogant is the correct word, or if you are using it correctly, then you are greatly misinterpreting what I am saying.

Definition of arrogant

1 :exaggerating or disposed to exaggerate one’s own worth or importance often by an overbearing manner an arrogant official
2 :showing an offensive attitude of superiority :proceeding from or characterized by arrogance an arrogant reply

My own worth or importance is no better than yours, nor am I superior to you or anyone in any way.

If there is one thing that you will see me boast about, it is in the love of God for everyone.

If you are on a train track and a train is coming toward you, and I offer to help, it you perceive that I am in the train tracks too. You are not going to care what I say, no matter how educated or eloquent I am speaking it. You want to see that I am first off the track and know of a way to get off before you would even begin to listen to me. Or even worse if you don’t see a train coming, or even see that you are on train tracks.

Imagine attempting to explain to the one on the tracks with a train coming at them with out insulting them when they act as if there is no train coming and they aren’t even on tracks. Like a crazy flat earther trying to argue to any one of intelligence that the earth is flat. Convincing can’t be done without offending, it just can’t. You can share you beliefs if asked. That is why we are to have an explanation ready for when asked, but it isn’t our job to convince or convert anyone.

That is all I meant by saying “Christianity is for those who want God”. As those who see a void without the One that created them having a loving purpose for them and to know them.

Having that belief, that we are all created by a Being who knows what is best for us since He designed us, and knowing (relationship) Him is the only thing that completes that void inside of all of us. IF one has that belief, then using logic, anyone who doesn’t feel that void, is either distracting/avoiding/numbing themselves to this fact(belief) or has realized this void and is lying to themselves that they have this void.

In honoring logic, I can’t think different, it is illogical to not think those two possibilities…if one has the beliefs I have.

BUT, that has not a single bearing on how I treat someone who doesn’t share my beliefs.

We live in such a sensitive society that doesn’t allow or respect one to have their own beliefs. How one can get offended by someone’s beliefs is hard to comprehend.

It’s different if ones beliefs is that blacks are inferior people, that is something to be offended at, especially if there is action behind those beliefs. But if one believes (a Muslim believes that I am going to hell because I don’t honor Mohammad) something that doesn’t make n any way change the way they treat me, how is that offensive? Can can that piss one off or create a divide? Actions should divide, not beliefs.

But back to the train tracks, that is why we aren’t supposed to convince others to God, rather to live our lives, showing God to others. When they see God in us, they will inquire us about Him, and that is why we are supposed to have an explanation what we believe, why we believe what we believe and to live what we believe and say we believe.

I do believe God is in control, and often is found when people hit rock bottom and have no where else to turn…but God, who is always there for you. Though I don’t wish for you to hit rock bottom. If you are not lying to yourself and you don’t want to acknowledge God now, I pray there is a time in your life that you do find Him. But I have nothing but love for you brother, my apologies for your perception of my insulting you or pissing you off, that was not at all my intent.

I guess if it is someone’s life-goal/religion for everyone to believe what they believe, I guess I can understand one getting pissed off when someone disagrees with them, even to the point of aggression or violence towards them. But God created us and knows how we work. This is probably why there isn’t a single scripture instructing us that everyone is supposed to believe what we believe, because we are flawed, and that would result in anger and hate, which is not from God. Rather God says, trust Me with the end result, you just live for the now and love Me and others, here are some laws and commandment to expand on how to love Me and others because I know the word “love” can also be interpreted for hate too unfortunately.

Before the Big Bang was discovered, the angered upon theory is that the universe always was. It was the Hebrews, who spoke that the universe had a beginning, that it went from nothing to universe 2000 years ago, as was revealed to them by God. It took scientist up until about 50 years ago to learn this.

“For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance, he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.”
― Robert Jastrow, God and the Astronomers

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still-learning and Mervin. Just hand shoulder surgery and won’t be able to respond as well as id like…Didn’t want you to think i dismissed you

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You are making the assumption that humans have to use reason 100% of the time or not at all. We, as atheists, have to recognize that religious beliefs have been the norm through history, not the exception. Faith based beliefs are a normal part of human behavior, even if we don’t always participate in it.

The best answer I have found for your questions is that religious faith is just something that humans do and have done for a long time. It’s not a very satisfying answer, but for me it does shift my perspective from “how can someone believe that?” to “why does human psychology work that way?”. From this jumping off point you can start to look at how the human mind works, how it makes associations, and all of the common biases that we all have. I have found this path of understanding to be much more enlightening than trying to conform other peoples’ worldviews into mine.

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Not a problem, with what is going on in the world, good to hear you didn’t disappear for a different reason. I diasapear for days at a time too for my job. Get well and God bless.

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