I don’t think heaven and hell is about reward and punishment at all.
I think this comes from a fundamental misunderstanding of sin as bad deeds which makes them think it is all about comparing the number of bad deeds with the number of good deeds. This is all wrong. The problem is that sin, any sin, is like a disease that will grow and consume us, destroying everything that is good (including free will) within us like a cancer. Part of the problem comes from the identification of sin with disobedience which is convenient for those who seek to use religion as a tool of power and control. But what sin really consists of is self-destructive habits. The sin has to be cut out of us and only God can do this.
Thus instead of heaven and hell being places of reward and punishment, they are simply the two ultimate destinies for human beings under these two fundamental forces of creation and destruction, with sin being the ultimate force of destruction. And the only hope is to let God in with a surgeon’s knife.
The Big Bang theory is just a description of the how the physical universe began 13.8 billion years ago, as both time and space came into existence. So one of the things we learn in physics is that the whole idea of absolute time is wrong. Time is simply an ordering of events. And just because God is not confined to the ordering of events in the physical universe doesn’t mean that He cannot order other events which have nothing to do with the physical universe.
I think of it as being in Father’s family or out of it. The ransom was paid for us as delinquents so that we could be adopted, otherwise we would still in prison for an eternal sentance. Scripture speaks children of promise and children of wrath. Punishment is very definitely a factor** – Jesus taught more about hell in the gospels then there is in the rest of scripture. And don’t forget about Dives and Lazarus.
Sin is disobedience and disobedience is sin – I don’t see how you get around it, either in the NT or the OT (and those links are just the noun form, not the adjective). Here is the adjective form: OT and NT.
When I sin, I am being disobedient in one way or another!
I neglected the verb forms – obey, obeying, obeyed and disobey, disobeying and disobeyed. Even that might not be exhaustive, and it does not include synonyms like lawlessness.
At least two translations even have it explicitly,
Of course there is. Teaching that sin equals disobedience is perfect for making religion into a tool of power and control. People are always making translations of the Bible which better serve their purpose, like the Jehovah Witnesses making the New World translation.
But I have no interest in Christianity refashioned into a tool of power, and I never will.
Father made good rules for his family to obey for their own well-being, directions for the proper use of the ‘equipment’. Damage results if you don’t use the equipment according to the manufacturer’s instructions and disobey them. What are commandments? Something to obey. What is lawlessness? Disobedience to laws (and a rebellious and disobedient mindset).
You are saying in effect that you have no interest in scripture – you seem to be hung up on this control issue and are being antithetical to the obvious.
Of course, people can abuse rules and power, using them to manipulate, coerce, control and mislead – that is evidence of our brokenness. But they are being disobedient themselves and disobeying commandments in doing that, the laws of love.
You should not have a problem with being obedient to a loving Father and yielding to his power and control. One evidence that you love him is by being obedient and not sinning.
You are saying in effect that the only purpose of scripture is a tool of power and control over people. I of course disagree.
No… people WILL abuse rules and power, using them to manipulate, coerce, control and mislead. That is why you have remove the opportunity for people to do this whenever possible. And if you really believe in God then nothing can be more important than removing this possibility in religion. When you look at the ministry of Jesus you can see this focus in his own teachings quite clearly.
I am saying no such thing. If I were you would be correct in disagreeing.
I can grant that, no problem. That does not imply that the rules themselves are intrinsically bad, merely by virtue of being rules.
Wow. You sure read differently than I do. Christianity is not a religion, it is a Person, to quote Tim Keller, probably imperfectly. That does not mean that there are no rules for the Kingdom’s citizens to obey.
Jesus condemns pharisaical superficial obedience for show. He does not reject a contrite heart, sorrowful for its past disobedience and its desire to be obedient in the future.
You apparently have a different set of rules for other people than you do for yourself. This is inevitable when you seek justification for passing judgement on other people like you have done. This is why Jesus gave the warning that when you judge other people then you will be measured by the same standard you use for other people.
I repeat… if you really believe in God then nothing can be more important than removing the possibility that people will use religion to manipulate, coerce, control and mislead. When you look at the ministry of Jesus you can see this focus in his own teachings quite clearly, for it is not the unbelievers Jesus criticized and condemned but the most religious people.
I said almost the exact same words to you, to show you that what you were doing was wrong.
You: You are saying in effect that you have no interest in scripture
Me: You are saying in effect that the only purpose of scripture is a tool of power and control over people.
Then you complained that you said no such thing when the fact is that I said no such thing either. That is a different standard for other people than you set for yourself.
Ok…
Here is where you seek to justify the judgment of others with regards to sins which you judge to be obvious. This seemed completely contrary to the observation that heart and motivation are integral to what people do and it is quite clear that only God can see the heart and motivation of people.
Jesus’ warning against judging others doesn’t mean that society should have no laws or that people should not be punished for breaking them. It means we cannot take upon ourselves God prerogative the judge their eternal destiny. It means that we cannot even take it upon ourselves to judge our own eternal destiny either. Only God can judge such things. Paul says much the same thing in Romans 10 that faith doesn’t even ask the question of who goes to heaven and who goes to hell.
I never said otherwise. But we know that an embezzler’s heart is a covetous and thieving one, or at least it is not one trusting God to provide its actual needs. That is not judging the heart because it has been shown to us.
), atemporal or omnitemporal.