My last topic.
I thank everyone either you agree or disagree with me, like or hate me. We all have cognitive blind spots. Often those who disagree with me help me see what I am unable to see.
This topic is about real life morality and safety.
It seems religious morality we often talk about doesn’t help us have sound judgement or keep us safer from crimes. For example, based on my personal experiences, the best people I have ever contacted, worked with, and traded with are the Germans, they can be safely trusted, and, as soon as I realise my contacts are the people of “humanity” or of “human rights”, I become highly alerted to the higher chance of fraud, scam, cheating, and breach of contract. I am not saying all of the Germans are perfect, and all other peoples are evil. You know the Germans are the most hated “evil” people on this planet. But the fact makes morality we often talk about sound like a bad joke. How can it be quite the opposite in realty?
Moderator: if this isn’t the right topic, please delete.
Hi Christy,
Sorry for my bad writing. What I wanted to say was how could morality help us stay safe from crimes. I expect to feel safer if my contacts are called more moral than others. And I would be alerted to danger if my contacts are called evil.
Christy:
Religious morality doesn’t help anyone.
Religious morality doesn’t help me have sound judgment to decide what people I should trust more or less.
Christy:
Germans are the best.
Based on my personal experiences. It may not be very accurate.
Christy:
Germans are the most hated people on earth.
When Christians talk about morality, if they want to give an example of evil, they often say “for example, the Nazis …” The Germans are disliked. Because I don’t hate the Germans, one of my friends with German roots calls me a Nazi. As if I have to hate the German if I don’t want to be a bad guy. I can’t think of any other people that are hated more.
Christy:
This makes morality a joke.
Morality is about good and evil, and related to our own safety concerns. When someone is called evil, it’s like saying it’s not safe to contact him. But in reality it’s quite the opposite. Does it make moral teaching a joke?
While I do not follow everything you are saying, I think I get your general drift.
First, in Christianity, morality as ultimately expressed in the capsular form of loving your neighbor, and having your neighbor extended to your enemy, is in no way associated with personal safety or benefit. If fact, just the opposite in that it often makes you vulnerable and at risk. I have some friends who do it lock their doors, and say that if someone needs their stuff more than them, so be it. I am not there yet.
Regarding Germans, that is somewhat offensive to stereotype that way, but will allow it as in general German culture values consistency and discipline, which is not specifically morality, but allows predictability.
I have to admit, my real question is why we cannot rely on those who claim Christianity to be more moral in their dealings, but ultimately know that such is the nature of humanity, and there are always those who use false pretenses to their advantage. My cynical self makes me suspicious of anyone with an fish symbol on their business sign or card.
I had been living in my fantasy, “Heaven of loving” before the first time I was nearly murdered. The near death experience shocked me. I kept asking myself how could I be so stupid if what I believed was better than other beliefs. It forced me to rethink about everything to help myself stay safe from my own stupidity. And I have become wary of anything that would make me vulnerable to crimes.
Unbalanced teaching makes people vulnerable to crimes.
If you teach loving without warning people about the possible crimes, then you are right, bad news.
Dear Shaun,
I am very familiar with various German speaking peoples. I gave up my US citizenship when Bush was reelected and became Swiss for similar sentiments that you raise, but I do not like to use generalizations when it comes to people. Heritage does not guarantee personal morality or enlightenment.
It is true that WWII brought great humility to the German people, which has been demonstrated by their willingness to pay reparations and support the reunification of Europe at great cost. But it was the Swiss humility that protected it from the arrogance of WWII. Switzerland is the oldest democracy in the world who protected the reformists from Rome. This democracy rewrote their founding documents to make the clear declaration:
In the name of Almighty God!
The Swiss People and the Cantons,
mindful of their responsibility towards creation,
resolved to renew their alliance so as to strengthen liberty, democracy, independence and peace in a spirit of solidarity and openness towards the world,
determined to live together with mutual consideration and respect for their diversity,
conscious of their common achievements and their responsibility towards future generations,
and in the knowledge that only those who use their freedom remain free, and that the strength of a people is measured by the well-being of its weakest members,
Germany has made similar changes to their constitution, but the US has not even considered revising the founding documents from the original revolutionary stance.
A touch of PTSD is very common after traumatic events. If fact, I think almost everyone has experienced it in some form or fashion. Trauma like that makes it hard to trust, and anxiety rises in situations that seem to put one’s self at risk. I know a lot of folks who struggle with those sort of issues, including myself, though I’ve not experienced anything quite that traumatic.
Certainly, finding fellowship with folks who understand and with whom you can build trust is important, as is meditative prayer and Bible study. I think Jesus was talking to us about these sorts of problems when he asks us to lay our burdens on him.
Some criminals don’t threaten you. They exploit your judgment, decision, or your tendency. They may look decent, friendly, or even admiring you. It’s harder to protect yourself because it requires your sound judgment. To fight them, often you are your own worst enemy.
Me either. I should have used the word “chance” to avoid the impression of generalisation.
I also love discipline and predictability, which make team work more efficient.
I support Christianity. I can trust Christians more. But sometimes, I do worry about their own safety. Leaving doors unlocked, what people do they invite? Would good people enter a house without the owner’s permission? Or even take stuff? And, what if what they are interested in is not stuff but life? When one of my friends moved to an isolated house, my suggestion was to buy two guns and two big dogs.
If this is how you see society ‘moving forward’, I do not envy you. It seems like reverting to tribalism. And I don’t see it as Christian. You must have had some damaging personal experience which has left you even more reluctant than the rest of us to accept Jesus’ command to “love your enemies”. I must admit that such a command seems so contrary to our evolutionary heritage, but yet it might be the only way humankind can avoid extinction.
Al Leo
Forgive me. I don’t think I could be great enough to think about “society moving forward”. That’s what I thought about when I was a student.
Now I am reasonably concerned about my own safety. I only want myself to move towards sanity.
I love honesty, the truth, and friendliness, and hate the opposite.
Is it tribalism?
One day, after the Bible study and discussions on the example of evil, the Nazis, I built enough courage to ask the Christians in the room a question. What if Jesus led the allies and defeated the Nazis, what would He have done, to forgive them and love them, or to persecute them, hang them? Nobody answered. But my not so Christian mind unconsciously tended to think that the Germans had been defeated, it’s time to forgive and love, not to hate and be cruel to them.
I was in fact influenced by Jesus’ command.
Interesting and very good. In our region, there is a big fundraiser for disabled veterans. However, veterans of the countries that fought against us (Islamic State, Saddam, Afghan Taliban) have got to have as many injured at least as we have; and far fewer resources to rehabilitate their injured family members. What peacemaking would it show them if we also raised funds for injured and disabled boys from the wars that have ended? Would it change the Talibani and ISIS grassroots minds if we helped our enemies in their day to day lives?
Dear Randy,
You might look at the reconciliation process that went on between the German Govt and the Israeli Govt. Their efforts were successful as far as I can see, but it obviously has taken a long time.
Best Wishes, Shawn
Our attitudes toward this problem may not be so far apart, Shaun, but let me enlarge on how I define some of the terms and words used that would make adherence to Jesus’ command ‘to love one’s enemies’ not so impossible as it first appears.
As a 19 yr. old dogface fighting in France in 1944, I really held no enmity toward the German soldiers shooting at me. After all, I was shooting at them with the same objective in mind: bring this @*!+ war to an end! What incited my hatred was not human beings that could be labeled ‘German’, but an Ideology, Naziism, that embraced concepts like Master Race and turning one’s conscience over, unquestionably, to a Great Leader. As soon as the evil Ideology was defeated, we, as Christians striving to imitate our Creator, should treat magnanimously (as brothers & sisters) those who had been misled. [Even those in the SS who revelled in murder? WOW!!]. “What would Jesus have done?” Its hard to say. He did not support a rebellion against Cesar Augustus, whose ideology was almost as evil as Naziism.
It’s not easy being a True Christian, especially if the society we are born into and which molds us is not almost totally in agreement.
Al Leo
I’d call it a Christian idea. But would it happen?
When Christians preach love, they in fact have something to hate. Christians have fought wars against not only the Nazis, but also many others, and even amongst themselves throughout history. They have burned people only because the victims held a different view or believed another idea, and slaughtered those who refused to be converted.
Christians could be very aggressive (or even cruel) when it’s over the dominance of ideology.
It gives me the impression that love is not Christians’ ultimate purpose, the dominance of their ideology is.
Or, maybe that’s just what Christians have done, not what Jesus wants them to do.
Christy: