Is quantum tunneling a possible cause or contributing factor for mutations?
I still see that as a bias that has no basis in rational or scientific analysis
I donât know about tunneling per se, but the chemistry does take place in regimes where quantum physics might have an influence. However, those reactions would still be modeled stochastically (i.e. randomness).
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You seem to be missing the part about uncaused events being thought to be random⌠Now the mutations may be random and they may not be on occasion⌠whatever random event lead to beginning of life, surely might not be so random⌠same with the random events that lead to reasonably minded individuals
You seem to be injecting that part into this thread where it doesnât belong. Most mutations, at any rate, have physical causes. Theyâre still random with respect to fitness, which is the relevant meaning in this context. You apparently want to argue about something thatâs not being talked about here.
In a thread on quantum consciousness, it doesnât seem like a farfetched tangent to see a connection between quantum events and organic mutations⌠either way, I still get the impression what I said about uncaused events was misunderstood by @T_aquaticus
(I wonder if @RTBsupporter appreciated it as the comment was originally addressed to him)
Seriously? Thatâs blantantly begging the question of non-physical causes.
Mostly random? To my naive understanding it would be very difficult to determine if all mutations are random.
I think I am talking about it differently⌠or like you said earlier in this thread about how it is assumptions all the way down⌠or maybe it is like what you said elsewhere, about how itâs best to avoid conversations about causality
For sure⌠as a person can choose a random series of numbers
This quote from Denis Noble seems appropriate
Think of a guitarist playing a tremolo piece or a pianist executing fast arpeggios: on all of those finger muscles millions of calcium ions are moving around very rapidly in small fractions of a second. From a single-atom viewpoint it is impossible to explain this.
I appreciate the other questions and will think more about them and how to answer
Oh, the thread has certainly postulated a connection between quantum consciousness and organic mutations. The problem is that the thread has provided not the faintest hint of a justification for making that connection. In any event, in that postulated connection, the mutations are indeed caused, so I still donât see why youâre introducing âuncausedâ here.
My problem is that I think this question is (a) outside the scope of a supposedly scientific paper, which is what this thread is about, (b) irrelevant to a discussion of mutations caused by a physical quantum process, which is the specific context, and (c) irrelevant to the overwhelming evidence that most mutations do typically occur without regard to whether they will be beneficial or detrimental, i.e. that they are random in the relevant sense.
Yes, it is certainly possible to propose that most mutations are random in the evolutionary sense (i.e. they donât occur because a particular mutation would be beneficial) but that some are chosen to occur by an invisible, nonphysical process because theyâre beneficial. I canât think of a way of ruling out such a possibility, any more than I can think of a way of ruling out the possibility that some mutations are nonphysically chosen in order to spell out the sentence, âMy mother is a rhinocerosâ, or any of the other infinite number of non-testable possibilities. None of these possibilities seems to be relevant to a scientific discussion or to be motivated by any empirical evidence.
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Itâs not an assumption. Itâs an observation. In science, if the data fits a random model then the whole of it is considered random unless subsequent evidence demonstrates otherwise. Science doesnât make metaphysical or ontological conclusions that deep down all mutations are random. Rather, science can only say that mutations are indistinguishable from being random.
The only exception I would make is for CRISPR/Cas9 systems in bacteria. In this case, phage DNA is chopped up an specifically inserted into repeat regions within bacterial genomes by bacterial proteins. These short stretches of DNA are later expressed and used as tags to degrade subsequent phage infections (if memory serves). I would consider this to be non-random mutation, but itâs a limited mechanism that has limited effects in biology.
Because the mutation may be directly caused by an event that a sizeable population of scientists believe could be uncaused
Uncaused events are perfectly relevant to any meaningful discussion about happenings in the world
Jesus walked on the chaotic sea⌠sometimes mutations are random and sometimes they may not be⌠Tremper Longman has touched on this subject and I wish I paid better attention
I would liken it to the empirical impossibility of distinguishing between an event that just happens, and an event that is the immediate effect of something that doesnât happen
Statistically random, and yet it may account for the beginning of the universe and origin of life⌠yet it is also statistically insignificant or simply background noise⌠but it need not be
A sizeable portion? What are you talking about?
They arenât relevant to mutations which have known causes.
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From what I see there is a growing body of research that confirms errors in DNA replication are being caused by quantum indeterminacy
About whether quantum indeterminacy is in fact undetermined
Which body of research is this?
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I saw some studies that I assumed you were aware of when you said most mutations have physical causes
T also seems to be aware of this developing field
See also
Super fascinating video by Anton. I donât normally watch his videos, but after sharing the link for the one on quantum tunneling and DNA mutations, I thought Iâd see what he has been up to. A video on Pando confirming it being the largest and oldest organism on earth caught my eye⌠pretty neat how mutations can be found in its DNA even though it doesnât sexually reproduce. There is a study that found some interesting variations in its DNA that were not spatially related as might be expected. Further details can be found in the video with links to the papers.
Itâs essential to be clear what is meant by ârandomâ. Some genes mutate more easily than others. Certain sequences are useful to have changing a lot; others need to be stable. Different organisms also vary in the likelihood of mutating. If a species is not doing well, there will be less competition within the species, and an individual with higher mutation rate may be successful because it is more likely to hit something new and useful, despite the higher risk of also damaging something existing that is useful.
Organisms cannot, however, decide âI need to be able to digest lactoseâ and start mutating their sugar metabolizing genes. Will mutation X happen? Our best models for answering that question are probabilistic, though mutation X may be noticeably more or less probable than mutation Y. Thus, in a mathematical sense, mutations are random.
Of course, that does not tell us anything one way or another about Godâs sovereignty over the process. âRandomâ can refer to lacking plan or design, but mathematical patterns do not prove that.
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What confuses me is when a scientist says the events are random. I can accept they appear random, and have a hunch that is how they will continue to appear as events in the world just keep on happening.
When scientists speak of how things are, what else can that be but short hand for âhow things appearâ?
I.e. even though we arenât always adding that inescapable qualifier from our language, it is there nonetheless.
Random generally just means unpredictable in the instance, except as some possible degree of probability.
Random does not entail uncaused. It is that we cannot predict the when and where of that particular instance of cause and effect.
Random does not necessitate equal probability. Mutations can be more frequent in one area of DNA than another, and they are both still random, because it cannot be predicted which specific nucleotide will mutate or exact time of mutation in either region.
Non random phenomena is dominantly predictable. The path and velocity of a ballistic missile, or phase of the moon, is non random.
Pervasively, all data and measurement has some degree of randomness. There is a certain amount of noise or uncertainty which rides on the signal, and statistical methods are applied to ascertain the degree of confidence.
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