"Male and female He created them" .. and sometimes intersex

Faith & Science Conversation
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So I have question.

First I was obviously wrong. I spent many hours last night going through various journal entries. I felt like many was just being deceitful, ( entries I mean ) but all it takes is one that’s very clear cut. Then listening to Swamidass’s speech on YouTube helped clear up some of it, but mostly made me feel more confident in trusting outlier studies with so much hidden info.

So there seems to clearly be multiple cases of women with a Y chromosome and the same patient checked out by multiple experts that has convinced a wide range of readers, as opposed to just one niche of readers.

But what my question is, when it comes to a persons sex or gender, what’s the determining factors? If biologically someone can be be male but genetically be female, then it also seems like physical appearance is useless in these outlier cases. In those cases is the only deciding factor what they feel? And if so, what about others that genetically and biologically are male , and look clearly male, but say they identify as a woman. Where is the line drawn?

Is it only those with some form of mutation that are able to have that choice? I’ve definitely seen some people within the LGBT community argue that science does not determine a persons gender , as in what they identify as.

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Could be.

But I would have a ged time reconciling that to being able to preach the gospel, which includes repentance and sin. Grace and mercy definitely comes in because we all fail. But the fact that we are all failures does not seem reasonable as a blanket for do what you will… if that’s even what you were referring to.

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Soooo… then, where do you place those born as intersex that are neither clearly male or female - but a mix of sorts? Do they not exist? Are they not worthy of human dignity simply because they don’t fall neatly into the BOY or GIRL box?

Or, do we broaden our understanding (i.e. article) of ‘maleness’ and ‘femaleness’ to be inclusive of everyone God has created, including those who were born as somewhere in the gray, beyond black (BOY) and white (GIRL)?

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I would think once they have come of age they simply have a decision to make. If the they’ve adjusted well to living as a sex they were guided to by their parents, great. But if they harbor resentment for choices they didn’t agree with then, the choice should resolve to them. And if they choose to reject assignment to either sex that should also be their choice.

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Child psychology has established through research that a person’s sense of oneself as either male or female arises early. Around age 2, children are aware of the physical differences between boys and girls. By age four, most children have a stable sense of their own gender as either male or female.

People who are transgender have an internal understanding or a sense of self that differs from their physical gender assigned at birth. There are varying degrees of dysphoria that results from this disconnect and it can manifest in early childhood or at puberty when sex hormones begin to change the body causing the dysphoria to worsen.

Decades of research have document that the condition is real. Science hasn’t yet found out the causes (mainly because this segment of society is not well supported, so research is lacking), but that doesn’t mean it is a mental disorder or a phantom phenomenon.

Research on treatment is much better established than causes. For those dealing with this gender disconnect, transitioning through hormone replacement therapy and sex-reassignment surgery, the quality of life is documented to be significantly improved. Regret is very low.

A developing baby in utero will have their brain develop at a different time than genitals. The entire process is highly susceptible to hormones and conditions. It is completely reasonable, thus, to understand that mix ups can happen just as it does for intersex.

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Why presume to tell God that he has only created male and female, when he so obviously created people who are intersex - as not just male or female, but a mixture of the two in various ways?

Scripture mentioning only the majority, covering most of society (male or female), does not mean that we are to exclude the gender diverse as the minority.

I suspect Jesus shakes his head incredulously at how we treat those labeled as ‘others’ just because we have decided that they fall outside our definition of what it means to be male or female.

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They are already included. There are boys with damaged genes and/or physical defects and there are girls with damaged genes and/or physical defects. Why would anyone want to create a new box to put them in? Should we do the same with other genetic/physical defects? This is exactly why Down’s syndrome children are becoming a rarity. They are being aborted when diagnosed in the womb. Genetic genocide.

https://www.cato.org/commentary/down-syndrome-genocide

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  1. I’d like to know where the Bible says the creation is “perfect”. I would contend that the creation is “perfect” only in the sense it came into existence perfectly conformed to God’s will. It could well be that it is God’s will that the creation evolve into a more perfect state than the initial “perfect” state.

  2. God created them male and female … then along came Original Sin and messed everything up genetically.

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I ask because the reality is this.

Regardless if intersex means there is a theirs gender, and regardless of the discussions around a persons sex versus their gender, there will be a line somewhere within the mass majority of the churches across the world.

I still believe that there is only two genders. Male and female. Though the beliefs in this group varies widely on many topics, I believe scripture clearly points towards the only acceptable marriage is between a man and a woman. Though I support all public bathrooms moving towards the family style bathroom set up, single person genderless restrooms and so on.

Getting off topic. I keep trying to be tactful and find ways to say something instead of just speaking freely.

The main reason why I care about the issues concerning intersex and gender comes down to where to draw a line when a couple shows up that by all appearances seems to be a same sexy couple, and the more I understand about this subject, the more I can share about it with the congregation to help ensure two innocent people are just simply kicked out of the church.

Because we have done that. We have had one case of where I guy, who was always a guy, who even was married and had a kid, one day decide that they were identifying as a woman. So they wore a wig, and painted their nails and went on the whole my preferential pronouns. Within weeks he was kicked out of church, and I definitely support it. I’m not so confused over his condition.

Though I find it unlikely that we will find ourselves in a similar position again, or that it will ever be a case of a man/woman with a intersex person , just in case would like to know more about where the line is drawn.

I’m also completely aware that I probably won’t get a answer in here. At least not publicly.

But I do believe that by putting my areas of concern and contention out there that will be the only way to get answers. Even if the first part of the answer, as you stated, is working on redefining gender for outliers.

As the one dude stated, to me it seems like there is just two sexes , and that intersex is one or the other but with a mutation. Same as how I don’t think of people with Down syndrome as a subspecies of sapiens but as one of us with a genetic mutation.

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Down syndrome people are more accepted today than ever before. They are visible and included, bringing joy to those who elect to include them. Their condition makes them endearing additions to families. By in large, we do not discriminate, as they are treated with respect and loving care as society provided for their unique medical and physical needs. When stigma is removed, there is no longer the desire to exclude Down Syndrome people from loving homes or public spaces.

Gender diverse people are not included. Society refuses to acknowledge their unique conditions. We harass and discriminate, forcing them to hide, pretend or conform to our ideal of ‘male’ or ‘female’ defined in limited context based on the majority, using Scripture to do so. Religion is especially harsh, treating them as we once did to those with epilepsy by calling them evil, outcasts, and a sin. What we do not understand, we ignore or treat poorly - certainly not Christ-like. The stigma that results is not of the Holy Spirit.

ALL people are worthy of walking this earth with dignity. Excluding gender diverse people from society is not what God intends, no matter how many times we can point to the Bible to justify the exclusion of their unique experiences.

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Gender dysphoria is a real condition. We know this to be true through scientific research and the successes demonstrated through medical care.

Society has discriminated against transgender people for a long time! Older individuals who were inflicted with this at a young age struggle their entire lives. They learned early on that hiding was the only option, but it is exhausting to do so and is damaging to one’s psyche. It is a constant battle filled with shame, regret, and heartache as they try to live according to the demands placed on them by others (religious, mainly) who simply do not understand what they go through.

It is more ‘safe’ today then in past years to be honest with oneself related to how they experience life in a society intent on only two ‘boxes’. A third box as ‘gender diverse’ has become less stigmatized, although we have a long way to go to treat them as Jesus would have done so.

This is why we are seeing more older folks finally coming to peace with who God created them to be… simply as gender diverse. This is not something to fear just because it is too ‘different’, but rather we should celebrate just as we did when people with black skin were no longer treated as evil or an undesirable in society (although, we still have work to do there, as well). Human bias will always cause us to discriminate. Scripture is very clear that we are not to do so. The more we know, the better that we do.

Church families should be the MOST safe places for the gender diverse who are challenged to exist in a society that calls them ‘freaks’. Sadly, that is not what we witness, as it is church teachings that fight the hardest to keep these outcasts as outcasts. I listen in sorrow over how your church reacted to a gender diverse individual in your congregation.

Have you ever read the biographies of transgender people? Or listened to them explain their experiences, in their own words and not through the lens of others trying to retain ‘male’ and ‘female’ as defined by the experiences of the majority? Listening is the least we can do as Christians wishing to be good stewards of the Gospel.

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For example, here is the testimony of a gender diverse individual who was once a pastor who lost everything, almost (family reconciled), because she finally became honest with herself on who God created her to be:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=paula+stone+williams+ted+talk&docid=608017350258204370&mid=4B5B455DE1FAF0CB83A04B5B455DE1FAF0CB83A0&view=detail&FORM=VIRE

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So far I’ve not read anything that was convincing to me. I’m minimally interested in this to be honest. I’m trying to get a little grasp out of what I believe is our duty and no truly because I care if I’m honest. It’s simply not on the list of things I have time to deeply concern myself with.

But sometimes this year, I’ll try to plan it for sometime this winter, to read a book or two. Though some of the podcasts brings it up.

If something happens that launches a need to understand this more deeply because of a situation in my congregation, I’ll dive a bit more deeply into it though.

For example, the person in the link you shared. They had a son. The fact that a XXY was able to get pregnant , was the definite proof they were a woman. That was part of the evidence cited in by others.

The fact this person was able to have a son, as far as I’m concerned, is evidence that they are a man. Now, maybe it’s a adopted son and not relevant.

If I met them though, I would use whatever pronoun they wanted. But those are the exact kind of examples that has been shown to me for years which is why I doubted it all.

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These are difficult problems. One of my neighbors had a child with ambiguous genitalia back in the 1960’s, and as was thought best at that time, while genetically male, was surgically changed to female appearance as an infant. Life was not easy and was conflicted and isolated. Whether the decisions made on the child’s behalf were right or wrong can be argued, but it seems the church failed in reaching out and with support, doubtless more from ignorance than intent. My thought is that while we have areas in theology that are always going to be gray, we should always reach out in love.

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“It’s simply not on the list of things I have time to deeply concern myself with.”

Exactly. People don’t take the time to seek truth, and instead listen to the easily heard fear rhetoric and so very unkind false information. And therein lies the problem. People judge others through the lens of their own experience. For the cis-gendered (genitals nicely align with brain / sense of oneself), it is very difficult to understand the challenges faced by the transgender person… unless we are willing to listen - to THEM.

It is degrading and rude (certainly not Christ-like) to tell the gender diverse in our communities that we won’t accept or accommodate you unless you show us the abnormality in your gene code or what it is in your pants. Effectively, as a society, we continue to communicate when we do so that they are gross, freakish, and must remain in the ‘outcast’ box.

We also once did that to those inflicted with down syndrome, epilepsy, a cleft palate, missing a limb, black skin, etc. etc. Then, we grew wise.

So, I commend you for stating you wish to become educated. Please let us know if you would like reliable resources in your quest to understand.

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It’s not that I don’t care, it’s that I care about tons of other things more. It’s also that, science does not triumph scripture. Often I see this argument.

I was made this way, I have this nature or nurture based predisposition to this this lifestyle. But that’s not actually a justification for it.

You’ll never see Jesus using science to justify sin. It’s ok to do this because it’s natural for you. You often see the opposite.

But I’ll listen to a few of the podcasts while working later tonight perhaps if I can find them on ITunes. I’ve not looked yet. But will later. I’ll also take time
To push back what I’m doing in winter to focus a little more on it and read a book or two.

Then , if I am ever in the position of where it’s a issue within our congregation I’ll reference them, and share various thoughts the congregation even if I disagree with it myself to see if someone else can get it snd run with in creating a convincing argument.

But personal feelings will never be enough to convince me. Emotions are beneficial, snd they help, but it just work with logic as well.

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I suspect this is probably true. Having a wife who is a professional bioethicist has taught me that most church leaders (my self-included) are woefully under-prepared by the traditional seminary system to deal with ethical issues like these.

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Just wanted to say I don’t personally blame doctors who performed surgeries in an attempt to ease the minds of parents and the lives of those born intersex. What little was known doesn’t seem to have been widely known earlier in my lifetime.

I wonder if there is good preparation for general practitioners now regarding how to counsel parents to help their kids born with disorders of sexual development. I’m also curious just what the best practice is considered to be nowadays.

My general feeling is that in general it would be best to do the least amount of surgery possible until the child is of an age to give some clear indication of its orientation or wishes. But a doctor would need to address the feelings of the parents as well. I’m at a loss to say what the best advice to doctors should be exactly.

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Well then it seems you and I agree that messiness or ‘imperfection’ found in nature should be no problem for Christian theology. Where we part company, I guess, is in thinking we need a theological excuse for the messiness to lay the problem at our door rather than at God’s. Personally I don’t believe in a creator God or in a God as a separate, unified being since I’m not a Christian. But like anyone else I find the movement in the cosmos from chaos to states of matter, energy and space to living beings and consciousness pretty spectacular. That it happens at all seems miraculous. So to grumble about blood and gore or mistakes seems small minded to me. But most Christians seem to think that every choice was available to an all knowing, all powerful creator so that every little nit pick needs to be justified as somehow necessary. I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree where do but I would point out we share at least some common ground.

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I have no idea as I have not taken care of infants and children in years. My impression is that plastic surgery has advanced to where genetic males can be reconstructed as males much better than years ago, and reconstruction to the genetic sex is often preferable than making everyone a female anatomically, since that was about all that could be done years ago.

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