"Male and female He created them" .. and sometimes intersex

[Dana_Oleskiewicz]

SpeakingofSuicide is not a primary source. It is a blog site for one doctor. In my seeking, that would not be a credible source. Opinion is not the same as fact.

Conclusions as opinions based heavily on scientific research (facts) established by a large group of professional experts offers the most reliable source of information.

Recently, researchers have been studying this more carefully. The transgender population has the same common problems leading up to suicide as that of the cisgender population. Being transgender in a society that heavily discriminates (i.e. targets of bullying, mockery, legislation, outcasts from family/community, etc.) is a unique and additional stressor that contributes to the higher suicide rates. When that stressor is mitigated through support and treatment, the rate declines to that of cisgender cohorts.

Sources:

" TGA suicidality is likely predicted by minority stress experiences, including victimization targeting their stigmatized gender identity"… https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/144/5/e20191183

“Transgender people also experience mental illness at significantly higher rates than the general population. This heightened risk is primarily due to the fact that transgender people face unique stressors, including stress from being part of a minority group, as well as stress related to not identifying with one’s biological sex. If left untreated, these mental health disorders can also be indicators for suicide risk.”… https://www.suicideinfo.ca/resource/transgender-people-suicide/… with literature citations at bottom of article.

" * Respondents with supportive families reported lower prevalence of past-year and lifetime suicide thoughts and attempts.

• Those who wanted, and subsequently received, hormone therapy and/or surgical care had a substantially lower prevalence of past-year suicide thoughts and attempts than those who wanted hormone therapy and surgical care and did not receive them.
• A lower proportion of respondents who lived in a state with a gender identity nondiscrimination statute reported past-year suicide thoughts and attempts than those who lived in states without such a statute."…Suicide Thoughts and Attempts Among Transgender Adults - Williams Institute

I have more sources if you’d like to explore further.

The data are clear. Essentially, when a person is continually told by society (and especially if by families or other close relationships such as in churches) that they are sub-human, weird, and an undesirable as a minority where laws are passed to remove them from public spaces, then significant damage is done to the psyche.

“The statistic that 40% of transgender people have attempted suicide is used all the time to justify all sorts of things that have absolutely zero basis in science.”… The Truth About Transgender Suicide | HuffPost Voices (Not a primary source, but a relevant and accurate article that reflects the science with links to the primary sources contributing to the author opinions).

The more we listen, the more we learn, then the better that we do. In fact, the very source you cite advocates for affirmation treatment for transgender people…“If everyone followed these [affirmation] steps, how much would suicidal thinking, suicide attempts, and suicide go down among trans people?”

Transgender People and Suicide: The Tragedy, and the Hope

[Patrick_S]

@Dana_Oleskiewicz

In fact, the very source you cite advocates for affirmation treatment for transgender people…“If everyone followed these [affirmation] steps, how much would suicidal thinking, suicide attempts, and suicide go down among trans people?”

And if they were treated by psychologists to bring them back to deal with reality, how much would suicidal thinking and such go down? Our brains are wired differently, as well as our bodies. Men and women are not interchangeable.

[Dana_Oleskiewicz]

Patrick - Did you read through the scientific research thoroughly?

When practitioners have attempted to ‘force’ a transgender person to identify with the gender assigned at birth rather than seeking treatment to align body with the mind, dysphoria and suicidal ideation jumps up drastically. I posted several sources with detailed information from primary sources that refutes the ‘just deal with it’ concept as you have framed it.

What you propose is called reparative therapy (or conversion therapy). That method as a clinical approach is not only banned in many countries, for good reason, it has been denounced by ALL medical and psychological institutions (except the American College of Pediatricians formed in 2002 of 500 members to promote misinformation on this topic that is not sanctioned by the professionals in the American Academy of Pediatrics - as the legitimate organization started in 1930 with 64,000 members).

No ethical or reputable psychologist would take a course of action of denying access to treatment for a person diagnosed with gender dysphoria. Here is a list of organizations that would disagree with your statement, as the experts in the fields of medicine, endocrinology, children’s health, and psychology:

• American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry
• American Academy of Pediatrics
• American Academy of Physician Assistants
• American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy
• American Association of School Administrators
• American Associations of Sexuality Educators, Counselors, and Therapist
• American College of Physicians
• American Counseling Association
• American Federation of Teachers
• American Medical Association
• American Osteopathic Association
• American Psychiatric Association
• American Psychoanalytic Association
• American Psychological Association
• American School Counselor Association
• American School Health Association
• Interfaith Alliance Foundation
• National Association of School Psychologists
• National Association of Secondary School Principals
• National Association of Social Workers
• National Education Association
• School Social Work Association on America
• United Nations High Commissioner of Human Rights
• World Health Organization
  Source: Conversion Therapy | GLAAD

It truly is a shame that not only are transgender patients themselves not believed about their own experiences related to their own gender, but the doctors, clinicians, and researchers who better understand the science are often summarily dismissed in favor of keeping the status quo.

Here is a list worldwide of organizations that would not advocate to ‘convert’ a transgender person based on missions that focus on protecting patients, not harming them:

List of professional organisations opposing conversion or reparative therapy...

[Dana_Oleskiewicz]

It is uplifting to see that this marginalized community, at least more recently, is better represented in research efforts such as this so that the quality of care is improved. I look forward to learning more as ENIGI research proceeds and is published.

[Patrick_S]

@Dana_Oleskiewicz

That method as a clinical approach is not only banned in many countries, for good reason,

Adults can do what they want, as long as they want to pay for it, and not healthcare, SS, medicare or the armed forces.

Children are not capable of deciding what they want because they ARE children, and should never be given medical treatment for a mental problem better cared for by people who believe in normal and abnormal behavior. IOW, if you can’t legally sign a contract, you shouldn’t be allowed to mess with your body in a way that is irreparable.

[Klax (The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.)]

All this normalization of human sexual diversity! This thread is a gay Trojan Horse! Militarily it’s the Lanchester Strategy! Attack the margins! The low hanging fruit (how Freudian is THAT?!)!

[Dana_Oleskiewicz]

Really? Have you parented a child? They are quite capable of knowing who they are at a young age. Child psychologists have known for decades, through systematic research, that our sense of self as either boy or girl emerges at age 4 or 5. For the majority of us created by God, our sense of self within a gender experience aligns with body ‘parts’. For a minority, it simply does not. This is well documented, throughout history. That is just how nature works (see posted article), unworthy of the ‘evil’ label we have placed on it.

Besides, children are not receiving care that is irreparable. No hormones or surgery are given at a young age. The only intervention medically that might be administered, after much deliberation by experts and families, is puberty blockers to slow development of secondary sex characteristic until mental acuity can mature enough to be more sure on further medical care. It is more harmful for a person to go through puberty twice, physically and mentally, so extra time for the full ‘personhood’ to emerge is the goal so that decisions are based on as much accurate information as possible.

Being intersex, transgender, or nonbinary is no more evil than someone born with a cleft palate, ADHD, or Down syndrome. Yet, we would not deny the latter patients modern medical treatment as we do the former.

This perception that professionals and families are willy, nilly cutting off body parts without very careful and wise discernment, considering ALL information available, is a false narrative intended to continue to stigmatize a segment of God’s precious creation within humanity.

[Dana_Oleskiewicz]

Sarcasm… ? Took me a minute. Then I saw your positive reactions to a few of my posts focused on the indisputable scientific information.

Yes - the marginalized are marginalized for a reason, as easy targets. The ecologist in me recognizes the hunting patterns of the lion pride… single out the weak and defenseless.

[LM77 (Liam Maguire)]

Hi all,

This is a gentle remind that in order for this thread to stay open it must stay on topic. That means that whilst discussion of Intersex issues is fine, please can we keep away from issues surrounding transgender topics.

My thanks for your cooperation.
Your friendly neighbourhood moderator.

[Dana_Oleskiewicz]

The science on transgender health care is also well established, just as is the information on intersex. When common misinformation on that science was shared, I felt compelled to respond. My apologies.

[MarkD (A Whateverist, not a Christian)]

Sorry if I steered you wrong.

[Dana_Oleskiewicz]

Wasn’t you. It was the posting of Walt Heyer that had me stepping in with a more complete picture.

[Klax (The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.)]

You’re both wrong, it was my use of the gee word!

[MarkD (A Whateverist, not a Christian)]

How’d I miss that, were you speaking Cryptic again? You know I’m only fluent in American English, right?

@Klax

All this normalization of human sexual diversity! This thread is a g _ _ Trojan Horse!

Whoop, there it is. Nothing cryptic about that.

[Dana_Oleskiewicz]

Coulda been. But me thinks the conversation went off topic way before that, with the posting of articles in a manner to cast doubt on the transgender experience which essentially further alienates them from the very health care that they need.

As a Christian, I responded in love to correct the mischaracterization of a God’s people… off topic it went.

[pevaquark (Matthew Pevarnik)]

@Dana_Oleskiewicz

Coulda been. But me thinks the conversation went off topic way before that, with the posting of articles in a manner to cast doubt on the transgender experience which essentially further alienates them from the very health care that they need.

As a Christian, I responded in love to correct the mischaracterization of a God’s people… off topic it went.

I think for many Christians the very topic is deeply unsettling and might rather be swept under a rug so to speak. It seems to challenge foundational statements about the nature of humankind, e.g. male and female he created them… Such statements are part of the cornerstone for big cultural arguments against LGBTQ+ community. A sense of identity is built around unapologetically standing up for the word of God or truth. Anyone who challenges that is aiming to persecute and silence the church and we rally around leaders who will help marginalize this community because that would be consistent with what they consider to be a biblical worldview.

So it’s only natural to get a lot of resistance for some of these reasons and then some.

[Dana_Oleskiewicz]

I understand.

‘Male and female He created them’ is in the very title of the article we discuss. True to the mission of BioLogos, exploring theology at the intersect of science means that deeply unsettling ideas can surface as we continue to learn about how God created us as humans. Expanding our knowledge base often does challenge us to think beyond what we once understood, causing fear and unrest in our established identity as Christ-bearers.

This article on intersex people (who are also created in His image, just like you and me) reveals details about the human condition. At face value, according to the science, the truth is that God created in a manner that doesn’t always result in strictly ‘male’ or ‘female’. The complexity of interplay between our genome, physical attributes, hormones, environmental impacts, and our consciousness (brain/mind) is tremendous. ‘Errors’ can happen in the male/female design, just as it does in all other parts of our body (cleft palates, missing limbs, blindness, ADHD, etc. etc.).

Acknowledging this fact, and offering space and kindness to these individuals within our cultural cornerstone, as legitimate people, is a deeply theological question. So, do we have the science wrong, or will we be guided by the Holy Spirit to contemplate our understanding of their existence as we discern who is worthy in humanity to ‘belong’ within the body of Christ?

Responding positively and lovingly based on what God has shown us through science does not mean that we must compromise standing up for the word of God. Rather, we exemplify Scripture (Galatians 3:28) in offering fellowship and grace to all those who are different than us, as created, not just the majority who were born not as intersex. A biblical worldview is not silenced in doing so, but instead is blessedly expanded to include ALL of God’s people.

I did try to keep my comments focused on the science. For me, however, the theological question in how we treat intersex people as our neighbors is far more important. So… since you brought it up, I offer my above comments.

Hopefully, this was still on topic.

[MarkD (A Whateverist, not a Christian)]

@Dana_Oleskiewicz

Responding positively and lovingly based on what God has shown us through science does not mean that we must compromise standing up for the word of God. Rather, we exemplify Scripture (Galatians 3:28) in offering fellowship and grace to all those who are different than us, as created, not just the majority who were born not as intersex.

Just from I’ve learned from hanging around here I think you have that right.

[KZiemian (Kamil Ziemian)]

@MarkD

But there seems to be a problem here for many Christians. I don’t think there is any deep theological problem anymore than there is for accepting evolution.

I’m very un-modern Christian (also very bad Christian) and things like this worries me from long time. Also, things like this not surprised at all, I was thinking this must happen for sometime. My problem is that in this way Bible just become more and more irrelevant, since every it sentence must be reinterpreted, in often bizarre way “according to the science”, “cultural climate” or just “political decision”.

This time we learn that due to science verse “male and female he created them” must be reinterpreted, I can’t even guess in what way? I really worried that most of the Christian would face situation, that Jesus Resurrection account must be reinterpreted because of science, culture or politics. Of course there are Christians (big ?) like Edward Schillebeeckx OP who said that Resurrection didn’t happened and we must reinterpret it accounts in Gospels, one such interpretation Schillebeeckx proposed himself.

I’m bad un-modern Christian and have now any interest in atheism, but I would prefer to be honest moderate atheist, who thinks Bible is just collection of old “orient fables”, than Christian who pretend that Bible have authority, but in practice reinterpreted it in the secular way.

[Mervin_Bitikofer]

Recognizing that we are bad Christians kind of comes with the territory, Kamil. Jesus came for such as us.

And as for fearing that atheists … (or bad Christians) have used modern thought and science to claim that the resurrection is a sham; yeah - you’re right - they already went there and did that. You can lay that fear to rest behind you - it’s old news. So now the question remains for you and for me; Christ is still there beckoning to us. The only question that remains is: will we respond? For an allegedly “un-resurrected” guy, He sure gets around. I hope you’ll join us in our journey to become better disciples at his feet.

[And hopefully you have joined in with some physical church community near you … discipleship is not a solo sport.]