Local Mesopotamian flood

Faith & Science Conversation
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Jim Stump wrote in this Essay:

“We could take the text as employing hyperbole, as Tremper Longman argued in our series on the theology of Genesis. Or you might think this is an indicator that the story is not meant to be taken as real history at all. AiG doesn’t like either of those options because of their commitment to a strictly literal, face-value interpretation of the text. There is another option they might take, and I wonder why they didn’t: it was just miraculous. All the millions of species fit on the ark and lived there for a year because God miraculously made the ark bigger on the inside than the outside—think of the tents at the quidditch world cup in Harry Potter, or the Kingdom of God shed in Narnia’s Last Battle. Wouldn’t that kind of explanation make the story even more a testimony to God’s power?”

Meanwhile (after our discussions) I think the third option referred to by Jim above is the most appropriate one: Noah’s Flood was just miraculous.

The reference to Harry Potter and Narnia support my comparison with the “Miracle of the Sun” in Fatima (on October 13, 1917), and my interpretation in terms of parallel worlds.

In this line of thinking I assume more in detail:

  1. Only accountable and free people with capacity to sin experienced the miraculous Flood, that is, some hundreds of thousands living around Noah in the region of the antediluvian cities in Sumer. These people would be the analogous counterpart of the tens of thousands who experienced Fatima’s "Miracle of the Sun”.

  2. The rest of the planet outside the region where the miracle occurred was populated by creatures without capacity to sin. In this sense this rest of the planet outside the miraculous region can be considered part of Noah’s Ark.

  3. At the end of the “miraculous” Flood both parallel worlds merged again. At this moment God transformed all Homo sapiens creatures living in the rest of the planet into image bearers with capacity to sin (according to Genesis 9:5-6). Since this very moment Humanity is definitely established as a community called to live according to the “Golden rule”, and the human body becomes the “Golden principle” for assigning rights.

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@AntoineSuarez

Have you changed some of your views? How could you write these three bullet points without writing something I couldn’t possibly agree with ? Shall we just say, Miracles Happen?

So, point [1] seems fine.

Point [2] is fine, as long as we agree that the hominids without the capacity to sin (outside of Eden) don’t have the capacity because they are not morally aware to the divine laws.

Point [3] just has this little itty-bitty issue I would raise:

"At the end of the miraculous Flood (because it could have never happened through natural forces), God “transformed all Homo sapiens… living in the rest of the planet”.

Aren’t they all dead? Don’t you mean, after the flood, the only people left are the transformed ones of Noah’s family?

Or are you coming up with a very figurative interpretation of a non-existing Global Flood? If so, it would seem you are equating the term “Great Flood” to God’s wholesale transformation of all human souls … all at once, I guess?

Or transformation, birth by birth? Please explain…

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In the thread “My theory about the Flood” I supported the view that Noah’s Flood could be explained by assuming a big local flood affecting the region of the five antediluvians cities in Sumer. Your comments led me to analyze the available archaeological evidence, and I realized this evidence does not support the hypothesis of a big local Flood.

Additionally, thinking about Fatima’s “Miracle of the Sun” I discovered the possibility of explaining “miracles” through the assumption of “parallel worlds”.

Accordingly I was led to point [1] above, and I am delighted seeing that you agree.

Point [2] was already proposed in “My theory about the Flood”.

I fully agree to what you say with minor changes as follows:

The hominids (outside the region where lived Noah, his family, and the people who perished in the Flood) didn’t have the capacity to sin because they were not morally aware to the divine laws.

These hominids can be considered Homo sapiens and “anatomically modern humans” (very much like Noah and we ourselves are), but they were not yet image bearers endowed by God with capability for moral agency.

I would say: (because it could have never happened through ordinary natural processes)

As said above, by “Homo sapiens living in the rest of the planet” I mean “anatomically modern humans” (like Noah and us) but without capability for moral agency and capacity to sin.

At the end of Noah’s Flood “these hominids in the rest of the planet” all at once were transformed by God into people aware to the divine laws with capacity to sin. Thereafter all hominids living on earth were “image bearers”, and all their descendants (“birth by birth”) till now are “image bearers” as well, according to Genesis 9:6.

In summary:

  • One has to distinguish between the beginning of Humanity and the (non-existing) beginning of hominids or evolving living form Homo sapiens.

  • At the end of the Flood God engraves in all “human hearts” the Foundation of Law.

  • At this very moment the “human body” becomes the observable basis for defining what is human and assigning rights.

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@AntoineSuarez

Help me out with just this one little point …

You believe there was a global flood - for real…

And you also believe the global flood - for real - did not kill off all the other humans?

Or do you mean, instead of a Global Flood, there was a regional flood… somewhere… which, naturally, left lots of other humans alive.?

Is that where you are trying to go? Don’t let me put words in your mouth … but I just don’t “get” the idea (repeated twice now) that there was a Real Global Flood, and that there were humans other than Noah’s party left alive by this global flood.

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This one. He means “universal” in the sense that all Adam’s descendants except Noah & co. were killed by the flood. But not all humans.

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Thanks Lynn for contributing to this exciting debate.

I mean “universal” in the sense that all humans bearing God’s image (i.e.: endowed with free will and therefore capability for moral agency and sinning) except Noah & co. were killed by the flood.

Accordingly the population of humans affected by the Flood consisted in:

  • All Adam’s descendants.
  • All descendants from the “Sons of God” (Genesis 6: 2-4).

According to my theory all these people (possibly hundreds of thousands) lived in the region of Sumer.

The rest of the “humans” (possibly several millions) living outside Sumer were not image bearers and had no capacity for moral agency and sin. In this sense they were “anatomically modern humans” but not yet persons belonging to Humanity understood as the community of image bearers called to live according to the “Golden rule” (as discussed in this other thread): Humanity as such a community becomes definitely and worldwide established only at the End of the Flood (according to Genesis 9:6).

The people living in Sumer with Noah & co. MIRACULOUSLY perceived the Flood according to the Genesis narrative, very much like the people in Fatima (tens of thousands) perceived the sun dancing in the sky on October 13th, 1917, at 2pm.

All other hominid and animal creatures were unaffected by this MIRACLE very much like the world outside Fatima was not affected by the “Miracle of the Sun”.

So in Genesis’ Flood like in Fatima there are two parallel worlds going on during the time the miracle lasts. At the end of the miracle the parallel worlds merge again to one single world and no sign of the miracle remains other than the reports of the people who witnessed it.

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@Lynn_Munter:

Gosh… what are you two talking about? “But not all humans.” You already said “except Noah & company”.

Is there someone else alive other than Noah & company?

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@AntoineSuarez

Okay… so far… so good.

So the one question remaining is: Is this a global flood? Or a regional flood? For the the people outside of Sumer to survive, you must mean a regional flood, right?

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Of course. @Antoine_Suarez and I differ on whether they possess the Image of God yet, and would be “theologically human.” But he’s been saying this for like a year now.

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This is where you lost me. All humans had God’s Image from the start (Gen 1:26-27). But most of them had not been told not to eat from the tree of life and then eaten anyway. Sin is not following God’s instructions, and he started everybody out easy with “Be fruitful and multiply.”

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Gen 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Gen 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

@Lynn_Munter, so if Genesis 1 is the creation story of the non-Adamites, and it says these non-Adamites were made in God’s image… can’t we come up with another “image” that would be suitable?

Say: Free Will (even if it isn’t moral free will)?

There are those who insist that humanity is different from all the other animals in that humanity was Free in its choices.

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I don’t understand.

They all keep looking and looking for an answer to ‘what makes us different’ but I don’t think it’s discrete.

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These two claims seem to contradict each other.

Please explain.

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What exactly God’s Image consists of is subject to (a lot of) interpretation.

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@Lynn_Munter,

I am proposing the non-Adamites shared the “image” of Yahweh by having Free Will… while Adam and Eve shared that image, and more: the capacity for moral judgment.

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Because they ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil?

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Yes… but even before they actually ate of the Tree, they were special in that they somehow knew something the Pre-Adamites did not know.

I have frequently stated that, superficially at least, it makes little sense for God to challenge Adam & Eve with a moral test before they knew Good from Evil.

Nobody takes my point very seriously.

But at the very least, even I have to admit that there was something different about challenging Adam & Eve with this situation than if God had put Balaam’s talking-donkey in that situation.

To have Free Will is a necessary pre-requisite, which I am suggesting is what the Pre-Adamites had.

It may be that Adam & Eve also merely had Free Will (and that a donkey would not).

Then, by God’s own admission, Adam & Eve gained the key distinction that the pre-adamites didn’t have: they knew Good from Evil!

Perhaps the point of the special creation was not so much to that this Adam & Eve were smarter or dumber… but that God wanted to introduce some rather specific genetic information (like a longer lifespan?) which probably was never part of the pre-adamite genetic programming.

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Interesting — I would agree inasmuch as God called Adam and Eve to look after his garden.

Instead of “special creation,” wouldn’t it be more accurate to call it a “special formation?” I don’t buy that they were genetically any different from other humans, or that sin is passed down genetically either, unless we are all supposed to be descended genetically from Christ in order to be saved by him.

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Here’s a novel thought for you.
The entire planet was flooded.
How such a thing is possible…?
After all, isn’t the main complaint/challenge about this that htere’s not enough water to cover the whole planet?
2 basic issues here.
1- According to the passage-- Genesis 7:11, it’s written—
the fountains of the deep were broken up, and it rained for 40 days and nights.
2- we have absolutely no idea what the planet’s topography appeared like before the flood. massive mountain ranges, low-lying hills, etc…

I read several years ago that there’s a large enough amount of water stored in the mantle to be sufficient for “several ocean’s worth of water.”
Google, “Water storage in mantle.”
You’ll receive back all kinds of articles, both scientific/university research work, and blog articles.

The “fountains of the deep” being broken up brings to mind the idea of massive cataclysmic earthquakes, opening up subterranean water sources. Such quake activity makes me think that the entire surface of the earth was irrevocably changed forever. Whatever rivers existed beforehand would have their pathways altered.

It’s clear that the planet has tectonic structures. The question is— did those exist beforehand, as part of a recycling system which allowed the planet to renew itself forever, had Adam and Eve not eaten the fruit? It is it what happened as a result of the “fountains of the deep” being broken up?

I’ve heard over the past 30-40 years that there’s lots of cultural evidence for a planet wide flood, not just a localized flood.

And as for the sheer volume of rain covering the earth… We’re not sure what kind of atmosphere existed beforehand.
I do however have an inkling, after Hurricane Harvey, in Texas last summer— it could’ve readily happened. Harvey dumped 5 feet of rain in mere hours. The flood was 40 days/nights. Or, if we do the full, 40 days/nights, that’s 960 hours.
Back in July 2014, where I live in the northwestern Nevada desert, just east of Lake Tahoe, we had a thunderstorm which dumped 2 feet of water in 15 minutes. As I lived on a hilltop, I never once thought such was possible. Our development, which was 100-200 feet above the valley floor had 2 feet of water in the middle of the streets, and up to the middle of the yards just on my block alone. Once the rain stopped, it took 20 minutes to drain away. We sat there in awe, watching the vortexes of water draining down the sewers, and man-covers in the roadways.

I state the local story because in my 25 years of living here, I’d never even heard any stories from old-timers, who’d been here for 60-80 years prior, or their families who’d been here for over 150 years.
So… 960 x 4 x 2. That’s 7680 feet of water.
The 2 is 2 feet, the 4 is 4 x 1/4 hour, because it was a 15 minute downpour, so four times that would be an hour. 960 hours is 40 days and nights.

I’m told that storms are pretty hefty in the south, from Texas east to the Atlantic. Inches in minutes. I read or hear about them on the news every summer.
So… was there enough water in suspension to dump 7680 feet of rain?
Better still, how many ocean’s worth would’ve been released from the “fountains of the deep” when that part happened?

I agree that the idea of a planet wide flood sounds fantastic. But I have to tell you— to me, the asteroid/meteor which struck Jupiter in 1994 sounded fantastic to me. And watching the video of the aftermath, in the atmosphere… as I recall, one of those pieces left a cloud disturbance which they claimed was larger than the entire planet earth.

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It is a matter of perspective.

During the Flood the world splits into two parallel worlds:

Noah’s world where the miraculous Flood occurs, and the other world where things happen according to ordinary natural processes.

From the perspective of Noah (who together with his family may have been the main source for the narrative in Genesis 6-9) it was a global flood. From the perspective of the other world (and our perspective today) it was regional.

It is very similar to what happened in Fatima on October 13, 1917: From the world-perspective of those staying in Cova da Iria the sun danced at 2pm. From the perspective of the rest of the world the sun behaved according to the ordinary regularities we are used to. Both world-perspectives are real and both accounts are true.

Nonetheless in case of Noah’s Flood there is another ingredient:

I assume that all humans “having Free Will” are capable of moral judgement and image bearers as well. And claim that all these image bearers existing at Noah’s time died in the Flood, excepted Noah himself and his family. In this sense the Flood was universal.

The creatures you refer to as “human” which did not died in the Flood were hominids without free will.

I dare to insist: It is important to distinguish between Humanity and the evolving biological life-form Homo sapiens.

Humanity is the community of image bearers called to live according to moral judgement and the “Golden Rule”. Humanity has a sharp beginning in time defined by God’s intervention to make the first image bearers (Genesis 1:26-28 and Genesis 2:21-24).

Evolving Homo sapiens is a biological evolutionary construct and therefore by definition there has no sharp beginning in time.

With God’s decree in Genesis 9:6 the life-form Homo sapiens became totally and forever a community of image bearers and identical with Humanity.