Local Mesopotamian flood

(Antoine Suarez) #81

Thanks Lynn for contributing to this exciting debate.

I mean “universal” in the sense that all humans bearing God’s image (i.e.: endowed with free will and therefore capability for moral agency and sinning) except Noah & co. were killed by the flood.

Accordingly the population of humans affected by the Flood consisted in:

  • All Adam’s descendants.
  • All descendants from the “Sons of God” (Genesis 6: 2-4).

According to my theory all these people (possibly hundreds of thousands) lived in the region of Sumer.

The rest of the “humans” (possibly several millions) living outside Sumer were not image bearers and had no capacity for moral agency and sin. In this sense they were “anatomically modern humans” but not yet persons belonging to Humanity understood as the community of image bearers called to live according to the “Golden rule” (as discussed in this other thread): Humanity as such a community becomes definitely and worldwide established only at the End of the Flood (according to Genesis 9:6).

The people living in Sumer with Noah & co. MIRACULOUSLY perceived the Flood according to the Genesis narrative, very much like the people in Fatima (tens of thousands) perceived the sun dancing in the sky on October 13th, 1917, at 2pm.

All other hominid and animal creatures were unaffected by this MIRACLE very much like the world outside Fatima was not affected by the “Miracle of the Sun”.

So in Genesis’ Flood like in Fatima there are two parallel worlds going on during the time the miracle lasts. At the end of the miracle the parallel worlds merge again to one single world and no sign of the miracle remains other than the reports of the people who witnessed it.

(George Brooks) #82


Gosh… what are you two talking about? “But not all humans.” You already said “except Noah & company”.

Is there someone else alive other than Noah & company?

(George Brooks) #83


Okay… so far… so good.

So the one question remaining is: Is this a global flood? Or a regional flood? For the the people outside of Sumer to survive, you must mean a regional flood, right?

(Lynn Munter) #84

Of course. @Antoine_Suarez and I differ on whether they possess the Image of God yet, and would be “theologically human.” But he’s been saying this for like a year now.

(Lynn Munter) #85

This is where you lost me. All humans had God’s Image from the start (Gen 1:26-27). But most of them had not been told not to eat from the tree of life and then eaten anyway. Sin is not following God’s instructions, and he started everybody out easy with “Be fruitful and multiply.”

(George Brooks) #86

Gen 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Gen 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

@Lynn_Munter, so if Genesis 1 is the creation story of the non-Adamites, and it says these non-Adamites were made in God’s image… can’t we come up with another “image” that would be suitable?

Say: Free Will (even if it isn’t moral free will)?

There are those who insist that humanity is different from all the other animals in that humanity was Free in its choices.

(Lynn Munter) #87

I don’t understand.

They all keep looking and looking for an answer to ‘what makes us different’ but I don’t think it’s discrete.

(Antoine Suarez) #88

These two claims seem to contradict each other.

Please explain.

(Lynn Munter) #89

What exactly God’s Image consists of is subject to (a lot of) interpretation.

(George Brooks) #90


I am proposing the non-Adamites shared the “image” of Yahweh by having Free Will… while Adam and Eve shared that image, and more: the capacity for moral judgment.

(Lynn Munter) #91

Because they ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil?

(George Brooks) #92

Yes… but even before they actually ate of the Tree, they were special in that they somehow knew something the Pre-Adamites did not know.

I have frequently stated that, superficially at least, it makes little sense for God to challenge Adam & Eve with a moral test before they knew Good from Evil.

Nobody takes my point very seriously.

But at the very least, even I have to admit that there was something different about challenging Adam & Eve with this situation than if God had put Balaam’s talking-donkey in that situation.

To have Free Will is a necessary pre-requisite, which I am suggesting is what the Pre-Adamites had.

It may be that Adam & Eve also merely had Free Will (and that a donkey would not).

Then, by God’s own admission, Adam & Eve gained the key distinction that the pre-adamites didn’t have: they knew Good from Evil!

Perhaps the point of the special creation was not so much to that this Adam & Eve were smarter or dumber… but that God wanted to introduce some rather specific genetic information (like a longer lifespan?) which probably was never part of the pre-adamite genetic programming.

(Lynn Munter) #93

Interesting — I would agree inasmuch as God called Adam and Eve to look after his garden.

Instead of “special creation,” wouldn’t it be more accurate to call it a “special formation?” I don’t buy that they were genetically any different from other humans, or that sin is passed down genetically either, unless we are all supposed to be descended genetically from Christ in order to be saved by him.

(Steve Buckley) #94

Here’s a novel thought for you.
The entire planet was flooded.
How such a thing is possible…?
After all, isn’t the main complaint/challenge about this that htere’s not enough water to cover the whole planet?
2 basic issues here.
1- According to the passage-- Genesis 7:11, it’s written—
the fountains of the deep were broken up, and it rained for 40 days and nights.
2- we have absolutely no idea what the planet’s topography appeared like before the flood. massive mountain ranges, low-lying hills, etc…

I read several years ago that there’s a large enough amount of water stored in the mantle to be sufficient for "several ocean’s worth of water."
Google, "Water storage in mantle."
You’ll receive back all kinds of articles, both scientific/university research work, and blog articles.

The “fountains of the deep” being broken up brings to mind the idea of massive cataclysmic earthquakes, opening up subterranean water sources. Such quake activity makes me think that the entire surface of the earth was irrevocably changed forever. Whatever rivers existed beforehand would have their pathways altered.

It’s clear that the planet has tectonic structures. The question is— did those exist beforehand, as part of a recycling system which allowed the planet to renew itself forever, had Adam and Eve not eaten the fruit? It is it what happened as a result of the “fountains of the deep” being broken up?

I’ve heard over the past 30-40 years that there’s lots of cultural evidence for a planet wide flood, not just a localized flood.

And as for the sheer volume of rain covering the earth… We’re not sure what kind of atmosphere existed beforehand.
I do however have an inkling, after Hurricane Harvey, in Texas last summer— it could’ve readily happened. Harvey dumped 5 feet of rain in mere hours. The flood was 40 days/nights. Or, if we do the full, 40 days/nights, that’s 960 hours.
Back in July 2014, where I live in the northwestern Nevada desert, just east of Lake Tahoe, we had a thunderstorm which dumped 2 feet of water in 15 minutes. As I lived on a hilltop, I never once thought such was possible. Our development, which was 100-200 feet above the valley floor had 2 feet of water in the middle of the streets, and up to the middle of the yards just on my block alone. Once the rain stopped, it took 20 minutes to drain away. We sat there in awe, watching the vortexes of water draining down the sewers, and man-covers in the roadways.

I state the local story because in my 25 years of living here, I’d never even heard any stories from old-timers, who’d been here for 60-80 years prior, or their families who’d been here for over 150 years.
So… 960 x 4 x 2. That’s 7680 feet of water.
The 2 is 2 feet, the 4 is 4 x 1/4 hour, because it was a 15 minute downpour, so four times that would be an hour. 960 hours is 40 days and nights.

I’m told that storms are pretty hefty in the south, from Texas east to the Atlantic. Inches in minutes. I read or hear about them on the news every summer.
So… was there enough water in suspension to dump 7680 feet of rain?
Better still, how many ocean’s worth would’ve been released from the “fountains of the deep” when that part happened?

I agree that the idea of a planet wide flood sounds fantastic. But I have to tell you— to me, the asteroid/meteor which struck Jupiter in 1994 sounded fantastic to me. And watching the video of the aftermath, in the atmosphere… as I recall, one of those pieces left a cloud disturbance which they claimed was larger than the entire planet earth.

(Antoine Suarez) #95

It is a matter of perspective.

During the Flood the world splits into two parallel worlds:

Noah’s world where the miraculous Flood occurs, and the other world where things happen according to ordinary natural processes.

From the perspective of Noah (who together with his family may have been the main source for the narrative in Genesis 6-9) it was a global flood. From the perspective of the other world (and our perspective today) it was regional.

It is very similar to what happened in Fatima on October 13, 1917: From the world-perspective of those staying in Cova da Iria the sun danced at 2pm. From the perspective of the rest of the world the sun behaved according to the ordinary regularities we are used to. Both world-perspectives are real and both accounts are true.

Nonetheless in case of Noah’s Flood there is another ingredient:

I assume that all humans “having Free Will” are capable of moral judgement and image bearers as well. And claim that all these image bearers existing at Noah’s time died in the Flood, excepted Noah himself and his family. In this sense the Flood was universal.

The creatures you refer to as “human” which did not died in the Flood were hominids without free will.

I dare to insist: It is important to distinguish between Humanity and the evolving biological life-form Homo sapiens.

Humanity is the community of image bearers called to live according to moral judgement and the “Golden Rule”. Humanity has a sharp beginning in time defined by God’s intervention to make the first image bearers (Genesis 1:26-28 and Genesis 2:21-24).

Evolving Homo sapiens is a biological evolutionary construct and therefore by definition there has no sharp beginning in time.

With God’s decree in Genesis 9:6 the life-form Homo sapiens became totally and forever a community of image bearers and identical with Humanity.


Not really. There is nothing in the geological record that would indicate the earth was covered in water is problem #1.

Now once you say God did it then where the water came from is not a problem. The only problem is the evidence we have in front of us says that didn’t happen.


We have a pretty good idea of what the Earth’s topography looked like 4,000 years ago. It wasn’t drastically different from what we see today. For example, the Himalayan mountains, home to Mt. Everest, have been around for millions of years after India crashed into the Asian continent and lifted up rock that was once buried under the ocean. There are plenty of mountain ranges that show long term erosion, more than would occur in 4,000 years. There is absolutely no reason to think that the Earth was different 4,000 years ago, and literally mountains of evidence demonstrating that it was the same.

Those are single water molecules trapped in between larger molecules in molten magma. In order to get the water out you would need to have all of the magma in the mantle move to the surface, outgas, and then cycle back into the mantle so that more magma can do the same. That just isn’t a realistic process for a flood that was supposed to happen quite suddenly.

There is every reason to believe that tectonic activity has been going on at the same snail pace for hundreds of millions if not billions of years. A good example are the Hawaiian islands and the Emperor seamounts which were produced as the Pacific plate moved slowly over a nearly stationary magma plume:

When you map out the radiometric age of those features and their distance from the current hot spot (which is the active Hawaiian volcano Kilauea) you get this graph:

According to these measurements, the average movement of the plate over the last 60 million years is 8.6 cm/yr. This graph was made well before they placed GPS trackers on the islands to measure the actual speed of the plate. As it turns out, the current movement of the plate is 8.8 cm/yr as measured by GPS, within the analytical error of the rate calculated from the measured distance and radiometric age of those features years before.

(Steve Buckley) #98

Strange… I was of the impression that the Grand Canyon was geological evidence. The Ca. St Route 14 (Between the San Fern. Valley, and Palmdale/Lancaster and ), along the south side shows serious layering too.
And as I recall, there are massive deposits of fossils, at various sites, which include a large variety of different types of fossil/creatures.
I know here in No. Nevada, we have a large ammonite deposit field on top of a 9000’ mountain. Nevada has long been known to be the location of Lake Lahontan, a massive inland sea.
I know there are many thousands more scattered the world over.

(Steve Buckley) #99

4000 years ago is still post flood.
Thanks though.


Is 60 million years still post flood?