Life after death?

Faith & Science Conversation
41

Hi Shawn…In your earlier posting, you referenced a book called Life After Life. There are two such books with that title, but I presume that you mean the one by Dr. Raymond A. Moody of Georgia??

You cited this book after I asserted that I suspect NDE and “back from the dead” accounts may be the result of one or more of several factors –

delusion
the consequences of a medical or pharmaceutical application
deceived (that is, lied to) by demonic beings
doing it for financial gain

Your reference to First John 4 is a good one, and it is a worthy sort of question. “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God.”(NRSV vv 1-3a)

The admonition is to be wary of the fact that there are deceptive individuals out there --wolves in sheep’s clothing, to borrow a phrase from elsewhere. There are “many false prophets,” and such individuals do not wear a neon sign around their neck saying “I am the false prophet. Do not talk to me.”

I rather do not think the passage in First John is eager for us to engage in conversation with false prophets or with evil spirits. What we hear of their teaching and/or methods should be sufficient to raise red flags all over the place.

In the 1980s I read a book by another popular psychologist who recounted an experience of interviewing a demon-possessed individual. This counselor and several other counselors were intrigued by the demon inside this man and began asking the demon about his childhood and so forth. They sounded pretty silly to me…(Is a demon really angry at his mother?? etc)…

Conversations with evil spirits or false teachers are not necessary. “By their fruits you shall know them” — and a key fruit is whether what they teaches conforms to Scripture. That is what John was concerned about in that letter — teachers who were leading believers into false beliefs and practices… If they are “off” by an inch, they are “off” by a mile.

I tried looking into the book Life after Life by Moody. He has an interesting story. I read some of the online Amazon reviews – the good and the bad — and a couple other online things, also the Wikipedia bio, which is incomplete.

If I were interested in pursuing Moody’s work, I would at least expect to consider more deeply some of the criticisms given of his work — such as omitting cases that do not fit his theories (R.T. Carroll); ignores “a great deal of scientific literature” and glosses over the limitations of his methods ( James Alcock).

I was concerned to read in some article that Moody has a chamber in which he engages in paranormal activities and consultations. Ever heard of the Witch of Endor? I suggest you read 1 Samuel 28. It did not go well for Saul in that account, by the way. And Moody seems to be swimming in the same cesspool.

“Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery engages in witchcraft or casts spells, interprets omens or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord” (Deuteronomy 18:10-11).

You may say that Moody is not consulting the dead, but the living – who recently talked with the dead, or claim to have. Same difference, They consulted the dead – or were deluded into thinking they had, just like those psychologists were deluded into thinking they could psychoanalyze a demon, or like others have consulted psychics,.,…

“I will set my face against the person who turns to mediums and spirits, to prostitute himself by following them, and I will cut him off from his people.” (Leviticus 20:6)

“Those who practice magic arts … their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulphur. This is the second death” (Revelation 21:7)

There are more verses. The fact that Moody is swimming in these dark waters does not say much. When it comes to testing spirits, Shawn, test this one: he is dabbling in things that Scripture does not support.

42

Dear Robin,
Thank you for your analysis. I have studied many works on the afterlife, including Moody. But I would not reference him on this forum. I had referenced the the book Life After Life from Beatrice Brunner on your earlier post. Sorry I did not link it.
Best Wishes, Shawn

43

…like I said… any group that purports to know someone (or even a group!) that has everything nailed down is a group to stay away from. Christ himself didn’t even offer to do that for us - and he’s the only one who could have. Extricate yourself from that as fast as you can, Shawn! You are being led astray.

44

Is this Beatrice Brunner, referred to as “Swiss medium” in some reviews. Her book, now that I look for it with her name, is on Kindle only,.

“I will set my face against the person who turns to mediums and spirits, to prostitute himself by following them, and I will cut him off from his people” (Leviticus 20:6)

“Those who practice magic arts…their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulphur. This is the second death” (Revelation 21:7)

Remember what 1 John 4 says :“Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world…”

I would not consider anything that comes via a medium.

45

Yes, Mervin. The emperor Justinian agreed with you. He killed all the Arians who believed in Origen after declaring them heretics. This action goes down in history as Christian…

I am not led astray, so you don’t have to worry about me.

46

Sounds like the emperor Justinian thought he and his cohort had a corner on knowledge … sort of like you here, Shawn. Neither of us is going around trying to kill people who don’t agree with us, so - you can think of that as “Christian” if you want; but I will not be joining you in such notions. In some surfacy historical sense I’m sure he will be considered that by all those who want to find as much fault as they can with the historical church.

1 Like
47

Hi Mervin, Few people are willing to recognize a clear historical fact - spiritual truth has a short shelf life. The Yahwehist wrote the OT about 925 BC and it was corrupted in Babylon a few hundred years later. The NT was also corrupted in Rome, starting in 325 and ending in 543 AD. The world killed all the prophets, and Jesus of course, because they brought this spiritual truth. They killed Socrates, Joan of Arc and tried to kill Galileo. These are the people that I am most interested in because Jesus said: “My Kingdom is not of they world.” and the king of this world does not want us to know about it.

48

Wait a sec, Shawn…H did not “kill all the Arians who believed in Origen.” He seems to have been thinking politically more than anything else. But the Monophysite group is what he was after. Origen and Arian did have things in common, but did not agree on everything.

And while Justinian did operate in a manner that makes us squirm today – his actions were par for the course for that era. He built the Hagia Sophia. Had a wife whose career was in the world’s oldest profession…So OK maybe nothing has changed after all.

49

That verse refers to the Holy Spirit — the third member of the Trinity. Is someone on this site claiming to be the Holy Spirit??

50

Thank you for stating this, Mervin.

1 Like
51

Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit, Shawn.

52

How do you mean the Bible was corrupted in Babylon? On what do you base this? and since when do you say the NT was “corrupted in Rome”? The dates given are suspicious. You think the Council of Nicaea corrupted things? I would not call Jesus a prophet, or even Socrates or Galileo…but we are off topic here,

53

Dear Robin,
The Jews were conquered and exiled to Babylon and spent two generations in the city of the devil. Upon their return, they rebuilt the temple and rewrote the OT. It is this version of the OT that Origen shows was corrupted in his work work on the Hexapla which compared the versions of the OT circled in red in the graphic below.

Texts_of_the_OT
Texts_of_the_OT3104×1771 938 KB

54

No one is claiming to be the Spirit of Truth. I am trying to demonstrate which historical figures could have fulfilled this promise of Jesus. One clear candidate after the time of Jesus was Origen of Alexandria.

55

The Spirit of Truth is the Holy Spirit – not an individual person

56

So how do you explain the Holy Spirit fulfilling Jesus promise to explain everything to us? This is what the prophets did. Being filled with a Holy Spirit they spoke taught. Or how do understand Jesus’ promise?

57

Well OK…I know what you are referring to. But “corrupted” is a loaded word. Remember the Great Isaiah Scroll. It brought another perspective to that issue because of its antiquity. And as I said, 'tis still true that when you consult the findings of mediums/spiritists/ NDE researchers, you are talking with people who got bad information from maybe evil sources.

58

Well, first of all, Shawn, one actually has to have the Holy Spirit in one. Being European is npt an automatic qualifier. Being North American or South – or living in 2019 also are not qualifiers.

I think that it is a misunderstanding to think Jesus promised to “explain everything to us”. As it says, “the secret things belong to God.” Jesus did, for example, say “No man knows the day or the hour, not the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father” — and this was in reference to a certain thing. But seriously, there are many other things that only God knows…we are not promised all information. Not anywhere in the Bible.

59

So you deny John 16:13 which clearly makes this promise? Jesus promises to explain all truths, not every single secret. There is no contradiction in the Bible about His promise. Just those who defend their illogical doctrines are unwilling to listen to the spirit of truth.

60

As I said, Shawn, you first have to have the Holy Spirit in you to begin with. This is not a right of birth…It is a promise of second birth…

I am not denying John 16:13 (but read context) or anything of the sort. I am just wondering where you really stand on any of this personally.

It is a little bit like a child who does not want to finish his/her dinner — hates broccoli or whatever is already on his plate — but then demands their parents bring out the dessert (because it looks really tasty).

But the parents are more interested in their child having the nourishing aspect of the meal first — i.e., “finish your vegetables” – before entertaining a sweet offering – or any addiitional food – at the conclusion.

If you ignore or deny the truth that God has already revealed to you – such as that on consulting mediums, NDE, the idea of reincarnation or etc – these are practices that open the door to you receiving further UNtruth. Thus, it seems that you do not want the truth you already have been given.