Let's be clear when we talk about evolution and science

#162

I couldn’t find any place in this thread where I have spoken about history.

Oh… I get it.

No. History is based upon writings and is only small difference from getting things from the Bible. Of course it is subject to interpretation – not just those who read what was written but those who wrote it. But science is based upon written procedures which anyone can follow to get the same results no matter what they believe. I have claimed that the interpretation of those facts is a part of how science is used not science itself. But even if you argue that interpretation is part of science, it doesn’t change the fact that the ground upon which science is based is completely independent of interpretation by anyone.

#163

Race is a social construct, not a genetic reality. BioLogos has published the following articles.

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#164

Can anything in nature operate independently of God? Your questions along this line make it sound like if it’s natural, it’s not God. That doesn’t make any sense to me, coming from a Christian.

I don’t think God made a natural process and then has to supernaturally give it a kick now and then. If God already knows He wants man, why not build that into the process to begin with?

Now how much involvement God has with natural processes, I can’t say. God makes sure the birds are fed and the plants are watered. The Divine Rain analogy was a good one, but it seems you didn’t understand it, maybe because you have a false dichotomy going on.

So when you were an evolutionist for 40 years, were you also an atheist that whole time? Your other comments sound like that’s the case. I wonder if you’re still thinking under the atheist ideas that natural = not God? I went through an atheism stint last year, but I never saw natural as necessitating no God, perhaps because I’d come from Christianity in the first place.

I read The Language of Science and Faith recently, and one line I remember in there was suggesting that we not let atheists do our theology for us. The atheist thinks that if it can happen naturally, God can’t be involved. The Christian should think that God is involved in all things natural. My point about evolution is that it requires no supernatural help any more than rain requires supernatural help. God created nature to work well, and work well it does! How much God is specifically involved day to day is a mystery we cannot know. Science can’t detect God’s involvement. Science just explains the process God created.

I hope that explains my position a bit better. If not, I can try again. :slight_smile:

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#165

Yes. That is in fact the whole point. It is the basic concept of automation, where something works on its own like a machine, and the mathematical character of the laws of nature describes this exactly. The most you can say is that machines exist because of those who created them and I suppose you can also say that in order for them to accomplish the intended tasks, machines have human operators. So by analogy we can suppose that God also watches over the operation of the laws of nature to make sure they accomplish what He intends. And the quantum physics suggest that there is plenty of room for Him to manipulate events when needed.

But on this point you are quite right. It is like saying that something machine made is not man made, which is of course clearly wrong.

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#166

I can agree with this. The natural processes are created by God, and we don’t know how much He’s involved in the process. Machines can have varying levels of automation. I had surgery this year via a robot, but a human was necessary to guide it most of the time (afaik… I was happily unconscious!). My robot vacuum only requires me to press a button. Both are machines, but one can’t work without a human constantly guiding it.

Would there be a way to determine if God is constantly guiding a process like the surgical robot or just getting it started and relaxing like the robot vacuum? I don’t think we can.

I agree with you on quantum physics. Very easy for God to manipulate if He needs to. We can’t know if He is or not.

There’s just nothing about evolution that tells me that God isn’t involved in microevolution but is directly involved in macroevolution, outside of the natural process He created. I don’t really understand why that would even be necessary.

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#167

Many of the laws describe the results probabilistically. If your definition of exactly includes a probability distribution function, the statement holds.

At the same time, any functioning Turing machine I am aware of requires some external input to function. It takes energy to turn the wheel that feeds the tape into it (or stream the electrons). In this way, even a Turing machine cannot operate in a truly independent fashion. If nature is a Turing machine, its dependence on God’s providential support is not ruled out.

Best,
Chris

I should have included this. I was riffing on what you wrote, but I think we are in agreement.

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