“I was an evolutionist for most of my life. I eventually came to the conclusion that evolution is not possible. This change doesnt happen overnight, it takes time to shake off years of indoctrination.”
I come from the opposite perspective having grown up with creationism. Confessionally, what God is telling us has always been at the center of faith. In the Bible, He speaks with human voices and uses human literary styles to reveal Himself. I was helped to move away from the literal/ historical reading of Genesis by two events in my church:
An early flirtation with American fundamentalism justified by Medieval thinking led some of our dogmaticians to preach geocentrism into the early 20th century. How else could Scripture claim the sun stood still or rose and set? Neither the body at large nor most clergy agreed and we got past this.
The literal/ historical teaching of Genesis is currently being lifted up by current leadership as something confessional and essential to faith. This violates our freedom, our approach to confession, and our traditional approach to Scripture. We will get past this.
For most of us, we respect each other and do not need to agree on how we read Genesis, only that we agree, are in common confession, as to what it means.
And I come from a third direction, from a completely non-religious background where science is part of how I perceive the world and then seeing that the Bible and Christianity has something valuable to offer. Indeed, it made far more sense with evolution than without it. I would not and could not be a Christian without evolution.
Have you though? You at first kept asking us if we’ve read all the best talking points from anti-evolution literature and refuse to provide sources that demonstrate they really are looking at and can explain the same evidence like some that I and others have pointed out about common ancestry.
It also seems as if you are unfamiliar with the main evidences for the theory of evolution and parroted typical anti-evolution talking points when you said:
Or when you said:
This would also indicate that you perhaps might not be following studies in which such de novo genes are found to be quite common like this one: De Novo Gene Birth
Note that the authors describe several mechanisms beyond random mutations like:
Atheists have had similar doubts about particular claims by Christians to have converted from atheism. Of course there is no doubt whatsoever that this has happened numerous times with some famous examples. But there are a number of Christians who like to equate a rebellious hedonistic period of the their life with being an evolutionist and atheist, when clearly what they were doing wasn’t much investigation into either evolution or atheism. It is what gives them some rather silly notions about both of these such as thinking that people are only atheist and reject the Bible because they want to sin.
I did ask Jesus into my life when I was in high school in response to a tv evangelist – quite sincerely with a desperate heart. But that wasn’t near enough to change my thinking. Several years later in college I was comparing ideas of God in different religions to figure out what the word could possibly be refering to. A significant step a few years later in my change to Christian thinking was the passage in Romans 7, where Paul cries out,
15 I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good. 17 So then it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me. 21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inmost self, 23 but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin which dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
So for me the game changer were these words of Paul. I had an admiration for Jesus, reading his words in various gospels. But that only got me to the great teacher and example to follow stage.
Thanks for sharing your story. I’m always interested in people’s testimonies. I was nearly 50 years old when I got converted. I was a committed atheist, convinced that nature is the only reality - no God, nothing supernatural, and so on. I had no interest in any religion and I wasnt searching for meaning in life or anything like that. A group of people prayed for about 3 years for me to come to know the Lord. It worked and I had a sudden revelation of the existence of God and the need for a saviour. Never underestimate the power of prayer.
Great. So if your conclusion that creationism explains genetics is based on long research, you should be able to point me to where it does so. Where is that?
I think I have no information on the subject and therefore no opinion.
It’s right that as Christians we should respect each other. I dont see anything wrong with debating our differences - iron sharpens iron - providing of course that is doesnt descend into the sort of nastiness that we see in some of the world’s blogs. I used to debate with atheists on some of those blogs, and I was willing to tolerate the bad language, but too often there were blasphemous comments being made so I gave it up. I appreciate the fact that such things dont happen on this blog. So well done guys for remaining civil.
I’m brand new, here, and I am also enjoying the discussion. Had similar experience with atheist blogs. Once, I tried to agree with them regarding charlatan preachers and they still abused me. One had the nerve to explain the anger being due to them being lied to about God all their lives.
That seems a common behavior of an atheist subset who aggressively assert how religion is evil and ruins everything, and we should rise above it. Fortunately, most atheists I have interacted with are not so negative, and whose company is pleasant and stimulating. All groups have their bad apples, and many find a home on the internet.
Yeah, I now stick to the poeple I know, personally, with those discussions, and we get along, fine. The coolest thing, for me, is that they often understand the implcations of what we believe better than we do and I find it strengthens faith.
I believe that God is guiding not just evolution but all things. I also believe that the universe is “fine-tuned,” but not in the usual sense. With Pascal, I think the evidence “for” and “against” God is so finely balanced that reason alone cannot decide the question. As he put it,
God has willed to redeem men, and to open salvation to those who seek it. But … as so many make themselves unworthy of His mercy, He has willed to leave them in the loss of the good which they do not want. It was not then right that He should appear in a manner manifestly divine, and completely capable of convincing all men; but it was also not right that He should come in so hidden a manner that He could not be known by those who should sincerely seek Him. He has willed to make Himself quite recognisable by those; and thus, willing to appear openly to those who seek Him with all their heart, and to be hidden from those who flee from Him with all their heart, He so regulates the knowledge of Himself that He has given signs of Himself, visible to those who seek Him, and not to those who seek Him not. There is enough light for those who only desire to see, and enough obscurity for those who have a contrary disposition.
I said before that God’s personal guidance almost always comes through secondary, ordinary means, not miraculous interventions. To the outside observer, such instances might appear perfectly mundane, as if nothing out of the ordinary has happened. What’s more, the non-Christian always will be able to offer a “reasonable” alternative, usually “coincidence.” Along the same lines, God easily could guide evolution through secondary, ordinary means that would leave no trace to the outside observer.
The entire history of this planet seems one of extraordinary coincidences. (The National Geographic series One Strange Rock does a good job detailing some of them.) Whether one attributes all, some, or none of them to God is a matter of faith, not science.
I’ve spent time on atheist website forums where I’ve too frequently seen that play out. There are so many people who seem very upset by their experience with religion, often enough with good reason. Still it is painful to see them go after anyone who believes differently than they do. For a group which frequently ridicules the notion of being saved by the sacrifice of another, it doesn’t seem to deter them from sacrificing you as pay back against the evil they think was done to them by others.
I’ve mostly hung out there because I only have faith in an itty, bitty God. Far from being The almighty creator of the cosmos, my puny God is only the keeper of all that is sacred to me, who continues to care when I get distracted and all the while patiently pointing the way. That is all I’m sure of. Origins and afterlife are tangential and speculative in my opinion.
I once went to a Dawkins site to commiserate with the outrageous treatment of him by Xtians in the media and interviews. All I got was abuse for my trouble. It is one of the things that convinced me that an increasing number of atheists hold to a number of irrational unsupportable beliefs such as…
A theist cannot be a scientist.
People only believe in God because they were indoctrinated to do so.
Atheists may be presumed to be more intelligent than theists.
I will acknowledge that for a long time atheists have had a tendency on average to be more intelligent than theists, but this will change as atheism becomes more popular, and thus more and more are just going along with a crowd parroting the rhetoric of others just as so many theists have done (and many continue to do).
In other words as soon as more and more hear the call to become true unbelievers? Yeah heavy thinking has never been very popular wherever people gather.
It depends on the audience, but rather than trying to replace one set of ungrounded beliefs with another (regarding the physical realm), perhaps it’s best to invoke skepticism to the max. Remind them the degree to which it is baked into the scientific process, and even in the personal journey of seeking truth, the scientific heuristic is the best way. That there is a consensus among scientists for basic principles in any field is because all other possibilities have been exhausted, but that there is great skepticism to be had for the latest details as they are not settled.
I think ideologically biased “consensus” will be a growing issue going forward. Those resigned to a subjective and relativistic world will try to skew evidence. It would be great (and proper) if Christians who are scientists become the standard bearers and open, unbiased stewards of truth.
@sygarte I was curious to know your thoughts on what the current consensus (if there is one) is regarding “race science”. Here’s a very recent book review in Nature that seems relevant. @mitchellmckain
One could argue that facts in the domain of history is “harder” than science, yet ideologically motivated reinterpretations abound.
Given proclivities of humans, perhaps enlightened Christians are ideally positioned to promote objectivity in the disciplines of knowledge, as we stand on conviction on universal principles (e.g. the inherent value of all persons), even if limited perspective on latest evidence appear contrary.
Perhaps Biologos can take us there @Christy.
While there are dissenters, the consensus on race is that it is a social and cultural construct, not a biological one. In fact the official NIH position on racial identification is that its equal to an individual’s self identification. This has been true for many years, as there are no genetic or other biological markers of race. I have written and presented on this subject, mostly recently here and here. I’d be happy to answer any further questions.
