Also, I love fasting, and have found it a very fruitful spiritual exercise (whaddya know… Jesus was right!). I don’t find it “gives less emotion” necessarily, but increases my joy, gratitude and awareness that Jesus walks with me all the time.
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Hmmm… I did not mean it to pinch! I apologize. I thought you were merely presenting information and were not necessarily attached to any particular view. Like Christy, the important thing to me is that Jesus was a completely new revelation and indeed the fullest revelation of who God is. That is what I believe. I don’t treat it as something which “evolved” from the religious soup of the time, so all that other stuff isn’t really relevant for me.
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Perhaps one of the most revealing of religious discussions can follow when one asks the question: “What do you hope Heaven will be like?” A large percentage of humans who have existed on earth have lived under conditions far from ideal–famine, hardship, fear of persecution or disease; ie., in failed societies where only a tiny fraction would experience the comfort and joys possible to human existence. So these humans naturally look to Heaven as a place of peace, tranquility and freedom from cares–often depicted as floating on a cloud and strumming on a harp in praise of God.
Christy, I must be one of the fortunate few who, having lived in the most privileged of societies in the most favored time in history, I see a glimpse of what I think is ‘heavenly’ in my life here on earth. Seventy years ago I met a complete stranger who quickly became an essential part of my existence–in a way that I believe portends the way I and my Creator can become One. She makes it possible to believe we humans are indeed made in His image. I believe the troubles and challenges that I have experienced are part of fulfilling the purpose He has for me on this earth. So my hope for “the next life” is a continuation at a higher level of what I experienced in this one. Perhaps on some other planet there are 'humanoids" facing the challenges of building ‘New Jerusalems’, solving the inevitable problems that come from being part of Mother Nature. Being ‘born again’ into such a ‘heaven’ would not be boring or even peaceable, but it could be joyful.
If I had been born and raised in Somalia (or as a female in Afghanistan) would such a heaven make sense? I think not. But I am not sure the Muslim’s Paradise or Christian’s Heaven would either. Your thought about meaningful work in the New Creation really hits home with me.
Al Leo
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Out of curiosity, I have tried to think of descriptions of heaven in the bible, and to save time searching it, I ask where do we have details of going to heaven after dying and doing things? My understanding is that all are meant to be saved in Christ, and the ultimate goal is to be with God, in a new heaven and new earth. I think some of the imagery in Revelations may be used to construct activities in heaven, but this is hardly a scenario of people dying and going to heaven to play and eat etc.
The imagery of the New Creation in Revelation is of a city, the New Jerusalem, where God dwells with his people. It is an extrapolation, but it is hard to imagine a functioning city where nobody has jobs. (Here is a short CT article with the Bible references and whatnot: We Can't Go Back to the Garden: Critiquing Evangelicals' Over-Ruralized Eschatology | This Is Our City | Christianity Today)
Also in Genesis, Adam and Eve were given a relationship and they were given work. I think those two things are a core component of our humanity and I don’t see why either would fall away in eternity. The “curse” however you interpret that, will be gone and with it the barriers to relationships and productive work.
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Yes the imagery of the new creation would include a great deal of creative activity and growth - and this would not be constrained by deficiencies in human beings. However, first things first - we begin by salvation in Christ and the completion of the activities in the present heaven and earth. Those who have died, are asleep and are bound in the hope Christ gives us. So we would speak of a new heaven, a new earth, and a new humanity, all within God and His Grace.
Ashley, the evidence from current anthropology (see Ian Tattersall or Simon Morris) strongly supports the conclusion that, through a process we call Darwinian evolution, Homo sapiens appeared on the earthly scene almost 200,000 years B.P. and, as you are undoubtedly aware, some cross breeding with earlier Neanderthals and Denisovians must have occurred. However, it was over 100,000 yrs after their first appearance that Homo sapiens suddenly left evidence of truly human behavior–the Great Leap Forward of conscious awareness, abstract thought and appreciation of an afterlife. Direct evidence for the use of sophisticated language is, of course, unavailable, but it seems safe to infer that these advanced Homo sapiens did not communicate effectively with their Neanderthal cousins. (As many a G.I. can attest, seduction can occur with little or no conversation.)
So, will we meet with the Neanderthals in heaven, and, if so, will we be able to converse with them? Highly unlikely, wouldn’t you think? And even more so for our Homo erectus and Homo habilis forebears. Perhaps a practical (if oversimplified) belief is that they possessed mortal souls while we newcomers were gifted with immortal ones through the covenant, as Scripture implies.
Al Leo
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Some people say that if God is involved, by definition it is not Darwinian Evolution.
It’s just another nuance in a complex discussion.
The description of afterlife in the las a rush story is one of accountability. To the rich man who had it so good some accounting is required. And it’s uncomfortable (extremely ). People who now go without look forward to relief. People like us, I anticipate some challenges. Where are your scars that show your struggle? Doom and gloom. It is a lot of speculation. I think hours of prayer can be done after death. Here and now calls for action. Dorothy day comes to mind.
Did not know how to respond. Men struggle with anger, violence and lust, as emotions. Fasting diminishes those. This may be a gender difference. And the male response to stress or even happiness is often silent, where female response is vocal. We are in an in between space where discourse is possible. Even understanding may happen.
[quote=“gbrooks9, post:28, topic:9207”]
Some people say that if God is involved, by definition it is not Darwinian Evolution.
It’s just another nuance in a complex discussion.
[/quote]
Exactly so, George. And most of those taking part in the BioLogos discussions are well aware of the modifications in Darwin’s original thesis that no longer seem to require that only Blind Chance directs the evolution of humankind. But nuances in labeling are often the reason that supporters of YEC, of ID and of EC end up ‘talking past one another’.
Al Leo
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Mike, you hit upon the one aspect of Christian theology that gives me the most trouble: So much of Scripture appears to support the thesis that there is necessarily a reciprocal relationship between the happiness in this life when compared to that of the next. One can argue that the rich man described by Luke 16:19-31 missed out on the true happiness in this life by not showing compassion to Lazarus, the beggar on his doorstep, and thus deserved Hell. However, so much ‘spiritual thought’ (at least in the Catholicism in which I was raised) might have given rise to Karl Marx’s dictum “religion is the opiate of the common people”; e.g. on earth we are in exile; we are Pilgrims on the Earth, away from our true home which is Heaven.
Thoughts like these might have served a very good purpose to uplift people in times of suffering, keeping them from falling into the depths of depression. At the same time, this attitude may have discouraged others to take worthwhile action: In Shakespeare’s words: “Is it nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune; or to take up arms and by opposing, end them.”
In the parable told in Luke, Lazarus finds eternal happiness “in the bosom of Abraham”. Personally, I find the OT description of Abraham as “off-putting”, and so that would NOT be heaven for me. Even “returning to my true home, the arms of my Creator” sounds too passive to be satisfying. I would rather hope that He has a further task to assign me in the next life[quote=“thabo, post:29, topic:9207”]
Where are your scars that show your struggle?
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As for physical scars, Mike, I do have some from a WWII rifle grenade, but they just remind me of my unbelievable good fortune. As for mental scars, it is difficult for me to imagine I have lived through 91 years without acquiring any.
God bless,
Al Leo
Don’t know about the theology. Best I can tell is that it will be cooler than here.
But I do know that jealously I wished I would have written A Song for You myself, and it sounds a bit like heaven to me, you know a better understanding.
And Leonard Cohens If It Be Your Will resonates in my mind and I covet that one too.
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