Hi Vinnie. We could be talking past each other. Mu.
You don’t argue from concensus. I accept that. But I’m making an statement about consensus. I wrote “And yet such questions persist and remain actively debated in philosophy today, suggesting the problem is neither easy nor solved”
It is true that these topics remain actively debated and discussed in philosophy today. Yes, even widely within philosophers of religion. Investigate this detail for yourself. Query whether there are definitive proofs for the existence of God that philosphers of religion directly and unversally support (within statistical variation) and whether this is part of a large diversity of opinion in the field. Look at area summaries in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy and other sources. There are arguments and treatises, some better than others, but all have both reasonable proponents and counter-arguments. You may believe that the existence of a God can be proven conclusively, or good enough for your assessment. I accept that. What I suggest is that the philosphical arguments you may accept are not considered settled and done within the field.
Hah. Don’t sweat it. I respect Vinnie and others for their direct, honest, and even barbed, exchanges.
I guess my thoughts, such as they are worth, is that proof and absolute logical certainty are not required for belief. And not having proof does not imply that a belief must be wrong. It’s perfectly normal and really, a default condition of life on the planet, to live with uncertainty and even doubt. When we’re young, everything feels massively urgent, super intense and something that needs to be immediately examined. It’s an intense time, often with a lot of confusion and anxiety. Just know these worries happen to a lot of people; most people, actually, to some degree or another. That can be hard to see because one unfortunate side-affect is that this is something people generally don’t talk about and carry it with themselves. Talk with friends, family, clergy and etc. “Go out, out take off you shoes and feel the grass through you toes” (metaphorically) to help keep things in perspective. It gets better with time, experience and helpful community.
A follow up: because of my prior mistakes (I really appreciate how much you guys have helped me work through my old habits ) I developed somewhat of a “fear” of what higher education could bring. I’ve already felt a bit of the “modern” views of materialism while in school; I’m taking a humanities class and have felt that Christianity was hit with quite a few “strays.” This has given me somewhat of a fear that going to college could “indoctrinate” me against my faith. As I plan to attend college in just a short bit, I was wondering what advice you guys could give me when it comes to protecting your faith in the face of the “materialistic” world we seem to live in today (again, you cannot understand how much I appreciate you giving my dumb questions intelligent answers).
I do want to say that I think one reason why I’m so nervous with these questions is that last year I had a major change in political belief and thus worldview. For the longest time, I was completely convinced that Republican values were the way to fix the country, and that Democrats were those vile, stupid people that kept enacting policies that hurt us. I never stopped once to consider why the Democrats did what they did; I just accepted that they were doing this because they were evil or something. I then moved to Nebraska, where the change in scenery caused a shift in perspective. Previously, in the higher populated areas of the east coast, everything seemed to have more “importance,” where Republicans were in active battle against evil. However, in Nebraska, everything is calm and you know essentially everyone. No one here is evil. No one here is enacting stupid policies because they are dumb. Alongside a history lesson where I learned about corporations in the Gilded Age (and was convinced that “Democrat brainwashing” was going to convince me to enact progressive policies), I realized that politics wasn’t this big battle of good and evil I had thought it was. It was just two groups of people enacting somewhat dumb policies in both sides, enveloped in their own self interests because that is how humans work. When I saw this, the role that politics used to have in my life shattered, and a more open and analytical approach to politics followed. I felt enlightened that I had broke free from these bonds of politics to see the truth.
However, I feel that sometimes I, unfortunately, apply this same feeling towards my faith. I’m worried that, like politics, I’m choosing a side in this false conflict and ignoring the views of both sides and etc etc etc. After I placed less emphasis on politics, my faith filled that hole that following current politics had left. I know it’s not fair to compare a twisted marketplace of ideas onto a discussions that warrant actual discussion. However, sometimes I cannot help it (especially when people like Jorge talk with so much confidence).
I actually remember seeing a Gospel Coalition article where by the late teens, children are convinced they know everything and cannot know how little they actually know. I’m probably in this area, yet cannot see it myself. Perhaps, with experience, I’ll finally be able to get out of this hole I’m in. Until then, any advice, @Terry_Sampson ?
Jeremiah 17:5-8.
Thus says the Lord,
“Cursed is the man who trusts in mankind
And makes flesh his strength,
And whose heart turns away from the Lord.
For he will be like a bush in the desert
And will not see when prosperity comes,
But will live in stony wastes in the wilderness,
A land of salt without inhabitant.
Blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord
And whose trust is the Lord.
For he will be like a tree planted by the water,
That extends its roots by a stream
And will not fear when the heat comes;
But its leaves will be green,
And it will not be anxious in a year of drought
Nor cease to yield fruit.
Proverbs 10:25. When the whirlwind passes, the wicked is no more,
But the righteous has an everlasting foundation.
I think it totally depends on his own personal motivations. Some agnostic/atheist people like to argue about beliefs on the internet because they are insecure and need validation. Many come from fundamentalist religious backgrounds that they are reacting against, and they take their black-and-white, evangelistic, apologetic-need-to-be-right-all-the-time tendencies with them to their new unbelieving community, they just change up their message. Those kinds of people tend not to appreciate our gracious dialogue guidelines because they thrive on triggering Christians and generating outrage from any side who will engage and they don’t want to pursue the common ground that science is good, they just want to argue about religion being bad. (ETA: Christians who just want to argue about atheism/philosophical naturalism being bad also tend to hate it here and get booted off pretty fast. Converting people to specific forms of Christianity is not the point of our forum, it’s to help people see that faith and science do not need to be in conflict, no matter what your worldview.)
But many agnostics and atheists see harm that cultish-religious fervor does to society, whether it’s related to child abuse, oppression of women or minorities, discrimination, educational negligence, climate-change denial, vaccine hesitancy, or other forms of science opposition, and their desire and motivation is to make the world better. Those kind of agnostics or atheists often fit in fine in this discussion forum, because they have common ground with the Christians here in wanting good science communication in society and wanting to build bridges in their relationships with Christians or Christian communities for promoting causes we all care about - stewardship of Earth’s biodiversity and resources, good education of young people so they can pursue scientific vocations, fighting against politicized disinformation that affects public health and policy. You don’t need to agree on doctrine or Bible interpretation or philosophical questions to work towards those goals. You can live and let live and maybe have occasional civil discussions on areas of disagreement because it is personally interesting to you to see how other people think, not because you need to convince other people you are right in order to sleep at night.
He says that he is an “Independent Researcher.” No employer? If not, he’s probably paying his bills by collecting money from posting ads or from subscribers who are silly enough to contribute to his maintenance. The forum won’t pay him, and despite his charming personality, my guess is that either he won’t come into the forum and will voluntarily stay outside the sheepfold, or he will come in, touch the wrong wires, and be sent out to play with the wolves.
I kinda have a bit of a weird question. You were able to stare down this man’s arguments while I was being consumed with anxiety. How did you do that? How did his claims not phase you but have held my mind hostage for months?
(Also, you mention the evidence for Christ’s resurrection as something to look into. Do you have any good resources on such?)
Jesus did no such thing. Christians certainly have done this. But this is their problem. The huge irony here, is that what Jesus is consistently angry about is the hypocrisy and judgement of religion and its leaders. So when Christians get judgmental they are the ones who Jesus is condemning. The story of the fig tree was talking about the same thing – how the religion of these religious leaders were not producing any fruit.
Actually we are born devotees of the spaghetti monster and we should stay that way.
Absurd claims like this are easy to make and nonsensical. It is the same kind of absurdity which has Christians claiming atheists are lying about their disbelief in God. Honesty requires listening to what people say – what they actually decide themselves about what they believe, and that is what makes someone an atheist, Christian, Hindu, or something else.
If there is a God, then He is doing an awesome job hiding Himself
LOL this just came up in the other thread about the universe itself seems to be hiding itself.
As for many of his comments about scientists and the condemnation of them by Christians I cannot agree more. These Christians are frankly just condemning themselves and creating this kind of reaction against Christianity. Christianity is a wide spectrum and many portions of it is bad religion, so much so that I consider atheism better than these (in general). But then I can say the same thing about atheism. Some of that is also bad… responsible for the murder of millions of people… and even the worst of Christianity is better than them.
Huh – he’s from Brazil and doesn’t speak Portuguese? I don’t know what to make of that.
But it confirms what I thought: he has no more business pontificating on matters religious than I would on political science.
Ignore that lip-flapper.
Has he got a Divinometer? For that matter, has he got a clue how to make one?
If not, he’s worse off than a blind man telling the color of smoke.
Jesus is the Truth – the rest is details, and there will not be a quiz.
You’re looking at the wrong viewpoint IMO. By even thinking this guy has a point to make you’re buying into the viewpoint than ignorance has a claim to respect, because his credentials show that he’s just flapping his lips – he knows nothing not just about religion but about the Bible and even about literature in general (which is evidenced by many of his statements). He may as well be referencing a Betty Crocker baking book to try to tell a contractor in construction how to get concrete to set . . . if he’s even that relevant.
As to what he would say I won’t guess, but I will insist that he wouldn’t even make as much sense as a typical uneducated YECer – he doesn’t have the right premises.
Listen (a lot) to Michael Heiser – he got a higher education that had the potential to destroy anyone’s faith and he came out stronger.
It’s a matter of your core: do you rely on your own wisdom, or do you look to Christ Who IS Wisdom?
IF you’re going to drink beer, do it with the Lutherans.
Seriously: be like the disciples on the Mount – see Jesus only.
Yeah I guess so. But I’d also guess that philosophical naturalism is inherently dogmatic in nature. What do you think about this? I mean do you believe that philosophical naturalism might be compatible with a more “open minded” view, namely a view that doesn’t rule out the supernatural in principle?
) I developed somewhat of a “fear” of what higher education could bring. I’ve already felt a bit of the “modern” views of materialism while in school; I’m taking a humanities class and have felt that Christianity was hit with quite a few “strays.” This has given me somewhat of a fear that going to college could “indoctrinate” me against my faith. As I plan to attend college in just a short bit, I was wondering what advice you guys could give me when it comes to protecting your faith in the face of the “materialistic” world we seem to live in today (again, you cannot understand how much I appreciate you giving my dumb questions intelligent answers).
