Chris, your comment interests me. The Scriptures say that we “…work out our salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philip 2:12). The EOC views Salvation as a process that starts at Baptism and continues through life until death, and only finally completed in the judgment. Paul says we must endure to the end and finish the race (2 Tim 4:7-8) and these verses back this view. The Western Churches tend to view it as a once off process to be born again. It is like attending a course to get a degree. You only get capped once the exams are over and you attend the Graduation Ceremony! Very scientific in fact!
Romans 5:12-21 that is being discussed is just as I mentioned in my previous post about the inheritance from Adam’s fall and then the hope in Christ in his conquering of death by his resurrection. One cannot stretch the genes and genetics too far. There is a boundary that must not be crossed by theologians and scientists. It is very easy to mix up one with the other and this has happened it would seem! Death seems to be inherited as the final corrupting event of life and this came from A&E.
Most Christians, however, do not approach Scripture the way you appear to be doing, as if we must take every description as a literal account of history.
We can determine the age of the universe by taking measurements and doing math. It’s not a guess, it’s a calculation.
When it comes to understanding a text, there is a lot more “guessing” involved in the act of interpreting language. We have to come up with hypotheses about what the author intended to communicate and what the original audience would have inferred, based on their conventions and context. We can’t calculate with language, we can only try to reconstruct the mental frames of the speakers and hearers as best we can.
Agree with some others here — well said!! I suppose that the controversies would involve the matter of which is literal and which not…at least for some. Thanks for your thoughts.
thanks JPM for your comments here. Have not seen them before…and will listento/watch that podcast !!!
It also is knowing the mind of the Church as it has been from its beginning.
OK JPM…the little blue screen to the right of my post here is advising me to respond to several posts at once, rather than several in a row. So then — just one more from me. I just started reading Loren Haarsma’s (sp) interview…and I see that the Biologos site has several more sites with transcripts of lengthy interviews with others. These also involve related topics or just topics of interest to me (which means “most things related to the Bible”). Believe it or not, while I do have some specific views, I also am curious about a lot of other views …and with the Bible, there is always more to learn. So— with regard to issues of the historicity of the fall or Adam/Eve --what is your thought personally about some of the many ideas that have been put forth that date the Adam/Eve event to some much earlier era (not 6000 years ago). I read something by William Lane Craig a few months ago. He “seemed” (if I got it right) to want to date that event and that “couple” to the era of H. Heidelbergensis (I surely misspelled the word) etc…and I read Swamidoss a couple years back. Everyone has interesting ideas—to be sure —and also, just to combine all my questions into one response – I got the lengthy article on a landmass at the bottom of the Persian Gulf. One or another of these writers (just referenced by me) has asserted that the whole Adam/Eve story could have involved something that occurred on that piece of land eons ago — and just been forgotten by us—except as something that got passed down via folklorish things like the Atlantis story…Adam and Eve etc. Hope I have not gone on too long…Just wondering about these things!!
I completely agree that no one is discipled into Christianity by interpreting the Bible alone and it is the church that replicates the church, not the Bible. But I also acknowledge that the early church had problems (that’s why we have the NT letters), Church Fathers were not infallible and got some things wrong (especially when it came to women), and that the church over time as it is led by the Holy Spirit actively discerns how to best interpret and reinterpret Scripture and apply it to our current cultural and historical context. That is how the church moved away from defending slavery and the subjugation of women and that is how the church has continually adjusted its understanding of what Scripture teaches as science and other areas of scholarship bring to light certain realities that inform our understanding of the world.
I find the New Testament to be very relevant to our present day with no need to change it, including about women; it cannot be changed. There are many instances in the way Jesus treated women, ministered to them and healed them; his mother was there at his crucifixion and given to the Apostle John to care for her as we are taught that Joseph her husband had died by that time. We read of prophetesses and deaconess. There is no differentiation of ministry to women.
Where did the church fathers get it wrong about women? Please show me and be specific. Elders are ordained in your case, or Presbyters (Priests) in mine, were men as they represent Christ to the Church are chosen. That is why women are Ordained as them. My official title is Presbyter (Πρεσβύτερος), but am called priest colloquially.
As I am sure you know there are also indications of men not dressing like women and so forth. Marraige was between a man and a woman. Romans 1 tells us all about sexual immorality that is still rife in society today; no change, and the way we should deal with women is covered by Jesus’ teachings as well as others in the NT.
Society tries to change the Church without being part of it and not knowing the way of the church. The new thing of “cancelling” people is very rife in the U.K. at present where I am where society has become very anti-Christian. The U.K. used to be a Christian society, no more as seems to be happening in your country. Strangely there is little spiritual persecution of Muslims!! Christian street preachers are arrested. Of great interest is that on appeal these cases are being turned down and lost when challenged. Your recent Pew Research has shown the fall off in the USA of belief and church attendance.
There must be a way of teaching young people so that they can believe in God and science without forfeiting their minds. I listened to a podcast earlier today about ‘Integrate’ that is doing this, a wonderful ministry.
Millions of people around the globe have come to Christ by reading the Holy Scriptures alone, including Dr Francis Collins!
Too many people try and interpret the Scriptures without proper training and experience and this is where many problems come from. There is already a massive resource in what has already been written and accepted by the Church. Everyone with a smartphone now has an opinion.
Sounds similar to the scenerio put forth by Gbob on the forum a few years ago. I’m sure you can search his posts. Real name was Glen Morris, and a neat guy, now gone to glory. I’m sure a google will also get you his theory, which was well thought out and as I recall Eden existed sometime back when the Mediterranean Sea dried up.
My problem with that is that the Bible is pretty specific that the time of Adam was at the dawn of the agricultural revolution and the advent of metal working and such, The same problem is true of Craig’s thoughts. In both cases, they are trying to retain some semblance of Genesis being historical, and merging it with scientific knowledge. In the end, I find that distorts not only the history, but the message of Genesis and what God is trying to teach us through it, and find that personally it is easier to accept that the historical references, genealogies and such in early Genesis are cultural accomadations, and do not represent historical events at all. But if I am wrong, I am OK with that too.
Glenn Morton, actually.
Yeah, and I have the same reaction Phil expressed regarding Glenn’s views. Glenn’s work (and there are mountains of it) does make for a good stepping stone resource to show the failure of the YEC approach at every level.
“Literal” is a problematic term. “Not taking the text literally” can actually mean “not taking it seriously”, but “taking it literally” often means “my interpretation must be correct”.
Obviously, we need to take into account metaphors and other figures of speech. But ancient figures of speech are not always familiar to a modern reader. Serious study, aiming at understanding what the passage is intended to teach, should be the goal.
So what was that on Pentecost 31 AD?
Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. And when they saw him they worshiped him; but some doubted. And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.” Mat 28:16-20
And so they did. Starting on Pentecost. So what was the mind of the Church then and what is it now again?
And
I live in the same country, in its first plural city of a third of a million, working one way and another at three churches and encounter no persecution at all. The street preachers rant freely all day long in the city centre, the Muslim proselytizers are far more restrained. The BBC has not reported any street preacher being arrested and there is no interest in non-existent cases being turned down.
The UK was a Christian society when it created and dominated the trans-Atlantic slave trade, oppressed its working class, drenched the world in blood under the unsetting sun.
I do not only get news from BBC but there are reports of these arrests and the appeals etc. Also a nurse and a worker being fired for wearing a cross at work, also being fired for having in the past made remarks on social media about marraige. You can look these up.
I know these ‘martyrs’ tales thanks. When you find one reported properly, let us know.
Check here and you will find most of them. See the Councillor applicant as a recent example: Recently published - Christian Concern
As I said, properly reported.
You are sceptical! I cannot give you the court cases but they were in the wider press.