Job and Dinosaurs

[jpm (Phil McCurdy)]

I fully agree with you that the theology is the real issue. Were it not for the theology, no one would think the universe was 6000 years old.
The problem I see with your position, is that theology is also a human construct, subject to human error and misinterpretation. Jesus pointed that out many times in his ministry in his conversations with the Pharisees and scribes, the most learned and serious theologians of his day. And today, we see widely different interpretations of the same scriptures. We have to have a measure of humility in our own understanding as we look at what God is trying to teach us through scripture, and that involves at times changing our minds, or accepting uncertainty.
Best wishes in your journey as we start this new year.

[JohnnyMac]

The alleged dinosaurs of Job are ancient depctions of mythical chaos monsters as biblical scholarship has known about for decades. They aren’t literal depictions of literal creatures that lived on earth. The narrative points are theological, not zoological.

[beaglelady]

@adamjedgar

They have writings from individuals who lived after them, and more after those people and so on all the way down to our current time. The chain of written history is unbroken for thousands of years…we have statements (in the bible) that talk about massive dinosaurs in the book of Job (which Encyclopedia Britannica dates around 600 B.C).

We know about dinosaurs from science, not from Job.

@adamjedgar

To be honest, i think Darwinian extrapolations of what fossils looked like do a similar thing…the significant difference is, modern researchers, don’t have written accounts of the fossils from which to extrapolate anything. They have to hypothesize based on best guess. Guessing is never going to be as accurate as multiple written sources who have actually seen something (and no this isn’t the same as the lock ness monster…because there is no physical evidence of the animal…no bones etc. That is very very different from the biblical statements about leviathan or behemoth)

We know what the fossils looked like in life by doing the science. Unearthing and describing fossils, analyzing DNA, etc. give us information about what the animals looked like and how they behaved, what they ate, etc. And when new evidence comes in, the science is updated. Consider how T-rex is displayed now–like a road runner, no longer like godzilla. This is because T-rex trackways don’t show any tail dragging. Even you would have some common sense about reconstruction–you wouldn’t put a flipper in an eye socket.

And the reconstruction techniques we use to show what our ancient ancestors looked like are similar to the forensic reconstructions the police use today.

[adamjedgar (adam james edgar)]

@jpm

Were it not for the theology, no one would think the universe was 6000 years old.
The problem I see with your position, is that theology is also a human construct, subject to human error and misinterpretation. Jesus pointed that out many times in his ministry in his conversations with the Pharisees and scribes, the most learned and serious theologians of his day. And today, we see widely different interpretations of the same scriptures.

I agree with all of this Phil and that is exactly my point.

I see that in the majority of different Christian denominations, the reason why we note they have differences with each other is because of the way in which they interpret Biblical writings.

Having said that, i can pick the major differences in most of them and very easily explain using biblical passages why they are mostly wrong.

For example, lets just look at a simple one, the Seventh Day Sabbath.

Most religious denominations claim that the Seventh Day Sabbath is no longer necessary as the day of worship because of one or all of the following factors (not an exhaustive list, just a couple of main ones):

1. It is a Jewish tradition given by God only to the Jews
2. Jesus gave us a new Covenant of love
3. The gospel was given to the Gentiles who apparently came together on the Lords Day and broke bread

ok so here’s the significant theological problems with the above:

1. Jewish tradition:

• The Sabbath was given to Adam and Eve in Genesis Chapter 1…it was then reinforced thousands of years later (long after the flood in Exodus 20) where it says “Remember” the Sabbath Day.

• Abraham predated the Israelites coming out of Egypt by many many hundreds of years and Genesis 15 says Abraham received the righteousness of God and was justified by faith…so salvation by works was not part of the original apparent legalism of the old law given by Moses…that is simply not theologically accurate.

2. New Covenant:

• the prophet Jeremiah 31 spoke of the New Covenant hundreds of years BEFORE Christ! Jesus was simply quoting an existing statement of Jeremiah (even your bible referencing will link the NT New Covenant with Jer 31:31-34)

• The new covenant is exactly the same as the old one…the only difference is that Gods eternal law (10 commandments) would now be written on peoples hearts and in their minds and God would take upon himself the responsibility of convicting people of his law…whereas before the people had said to Moses “all these things we will do” Exodus 19

• Love God and Love thy neighbour - has anyone ever bothered to catalogue the 10 commandments? Do you realise that when we catalogue the 10 commandments exactly as they were given by Moses they fall into 2 categories (love God 1-3 and love thy neighbour 5-10) and that these are joined/glued together by the Sabbath command?

3. Breaking bread on the Lords Day:

• Can anyone find any reference anywhere in the bible where it shows Jesus demonstrated/taught any followers to worship on a new Sabbath day? Teachers usually teach us what they want us to do…what teacher spends time teaching their students then says at the end of it all…forget all of what i have taught you…its irrelevant. Jesus did not once during His ministry teach anyone to worship or even plan to worship on any other day other than the Seventh Day Sabbath as was initiated at creation.

• There are other examples of the early church having meetings where it is clearly defined as being on the Sabbath day…so what is going on here? Are some apostles teaching one group the Lords day is Sunday and other groups its the Seventh Day Sabbath? That is incredibly inconsistent and not even supported by any biblical tradition illustrating the Sabbath day of worship!

I could go on with many other issues with denominations and why they do not all believe the same things. Some examples are the state of the dead, purgatory, heavenly sanctuary, obviously Teism/YECism…etc. When we move to Revelation 14:12 we find that the people of God are those who:
“…who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.”

If Sunday worshipping churches really are God’s people, why do they not keep all of His commandments? Did not the gospel go to the gentles because the Jews failed to keep their promise in Exodus 19 “all these things we will do”?

The problem is, you are attempting to say that all YEC’s have the wrong interpretation of scripture. Im sorry but the one commandment in the entire bible that is absolutely critical to its understanding is one that by far the majority of Christian churches ignored…the 4th. Therein lies the root of all of this trouble between YEC and TEism. Even Sunday worshiping YEC’s have an enormous problem theologically refuting TEism because of exactly the point that they all ignore and event discredit the need to maintain adherence to the keeping of the 4th commandment!

So when you say to me, oh but Adam its just the way you interpret scripture regarding the age of the earth…um, let me put this to you, if your mother says “stealing, murder etc are wrong and don’t do those things”, how can you possibly interpret what you mother is saying by attributing it as an allegory? It is very obviously to be taken exactly as your mother stated… DO NOT STEAL OR MURDER!

In the same way God said (and notice exactly what the 4th commandment states)

8. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10. But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God:
11. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

There is no way one can interpret Eodus 20:8-11 as an allegory any more than one can interpret any of the other 9 commandments in that manner (and to say otherwise is just plain silly given the illustration of one’s mother telling one not to steal or murder!)

[beaglelady]

@adamjedgar

I see that in the majority of different Christian denominations, the reason why we note they have differences with each other is because of the way in which they interpret Biblical writings.

The Bible teaches that the earth doesn’t move. Is this what you believe?

[adamjedgar (adam james edgar)]

@cewoldt

But God was moving his people, Job included, out of paganism and back to true worship of God through His inspired Word, not accommodating pagan understanding.

I think Job and his friends were anything but pagan. It is very clear to me that his religious practices were pre-Jewish in nature as they clearly articulate a very good understanding of righteousness and the consequences for sin.

1 In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil.
Job would make arrangements for them to be purified. Early in the morning he would sacrifice a burnt offering for each of them, thinking, “Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts.” This was Job’s regular custom.

Note that it was Job’s regular custom to make arrangements to have his children purified. This is not something that suggests he was being converted from paganism. His friends who came to advise him after he was struck down with all of the trials and tribulations thrust upon him by the devil, clearly understood the principles of the God in heaven as well…i doubt they were pagan.

[adamjedgar (adam james edgar)]

@beaglelady

The Bible teaches that the earth doesn’t move. Is this what you believe?

people also claim the bible teaches the earth is flat because of the prophecy concerning the four winds in Revelation 7
.
Isaiah 40:7 says people are grass

The Bible calls us sheep

The Bible says the earth is round in Isaiah 40:22 (circle of the earth)

He says the earth has “ends” in Isaiah 40:28…does this mean the earth is a rope?

what is your point? Are you having trouble understanding metaphorical verses literal reading in scripture and when to apply each?

[beaglelady]

@adamjedgar

what is your point? Are you having trouble understanding metaphorical verses literal reading in scripture and when to apply each?

The point is that in multiple places, the biblical writers taught that the earth doesn’t move. Also, they believed the earth was flat, and saw the universe as having 3 tiers, with heaven above the earth and an underworld/hell below the earth. Nothing metaphorical here.

@adamjedgar

The Bible says the earth is round in Isaiah 40:22 (circle of the earth)

Actually, a circle is not a sphere.

[T_aquaticus]

@adamjedgar

The Bible says the earth is round in Isaiah 40:22 (circle of the earth)

Flat Earther’s agree with you.

[rsewell (RON SEWELL)]

@adamjedgar

Are you having trouble understanding metaphorical verses literal reading in scripture and when to apply each?

There is more literal support for a flat earth than there is for people living with dinosaurs.

[T_aquaticus]

@rsewell

There is more literal support for a flat earth than there is for people living with dinosaurs.

Biblical literalists are quite common at Flat Earth conferences. They even sell t-shirts.

[beaglelady]

@adamjedgar

He says the earth has “ends” in Isaiah 40:28…does this mean the earth is a rope?

He means the earth is flat.

[beaglelady]

@adamjedgar

The problem is, you are attempting to say that all YEC’s have the wrong interpretation of scripture. Im sorry but the one commandment in the entire bible that is absolutely critical to its understanding is one that by far the majority of Christian churches ignored…the 4th. Therein lies the root of all of this trouble between YEC and TEism. Even Sunday worshiping YEC’s have an enormous problem theologically refuting TEism because of exactly the point that they all ignore and event discredit the need to maintain adherence to the keeping of the 4th commandment!

I just love Christians who go prancing around claiming that almost all other Christians, alive today or in the past, are wrong. So far I’ve learned that:

1. I’m not really baptized
2. I’m going to church on the wrong day!

I’m doomed.

[jpm (Phil McCurdy)]

So, they flat believe it as the plane truth?

[rsewell (RON SEWELL)]

@adamjedgar

For example, lets just look at a simple one, the Seventh Day Sabbath.

This has nothing to do with dinosaurs or the Biblical cosmological context.

When all else fails, distract and deflect.

[beaglelady]

@rsewell

When all else fails, distract and deflect.

Gonna pull something from all that tap-dancing.

[beaglelady]

@adamjedgar

The new covenant is exactly the same as the old one…the only difference is that Gods eternal law (10 commandments) would now be written on peoples hearts and in their minds and God would take upon himself the responsibility of convicting people of his law…whereas before the people had said to Moses “all these things we will do” Exodus 19

Exactly the same? You need to read to New Testament. What about the blood of Jesus?
Do you really keep the Old covenant and all 613 commands?

@adamjedgar

Do you realise that when we catalogue the 10 commandments exactly as they were given by Moses they fall into 2 categories (love God 1-3 and love thy neighbour 5-10) and that these are joined/glued together by the Sabbath command?

That’s meaningless.

ADDENDUM:

One time Jesus was asked what the greatest commandment was. He answered by saying, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and most important commandment. The second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets depend on these two commandments”

So Jesus didn’t even mention the 4th commandment.

[Kendel]

Bait and switch.

[Kendel]

Neither did the rest of the NT, except where Paul points out that some set aside “a day” and others don’t.