Pre-incarnate appearances would not be anticlimactic to those experiencing them! Think Nebuchadnezzar’s furnace. (I’m not insisting that they’re a thing but neither that literary criticism necessarily dispenses with them.)
Melchizedek the Prince of Peace is a wonderful and mysterious type of Christ.
Your comment got me to thinking about theophanies and this essay by Vern Poythress was a perfect fit with what you said:
“The Old Testament theophanies are preliminary. They foreshadow and prefigure the coming of Christ in the flesh. The coming of Christ is their fulfillment, their climax (Matt. 5:17).”
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Mark, they are linked from the top of the Forum topic page.
Or at this link: FAQ - The BioLogos Forum
Back to the OP again.
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I see it now. It is under desk view. Thanks.
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My point has never been that I do not believe in the trinity. The reason for my post was to highlight the continuing error in Christianity that separates Jesus from God. He absolutely was and is God. So to say, God raised Jesus is true, however it’s in the context that Jesus is God…so yes, he did raise Himself.
Another point has been raised here, can the triune God exist and function if one of its members/persons was kaput in the grave for three (parts of) days?
There is significance evidence that Jesus was not dead for 3 full 24 hour days btw…contrary to wives tails opinions that I note have popped up in this thread. Perhaps another thread could be started on this?
Which Christianity continues in that error?
Jesus, the Son of Man and God, was God, and human, by nature. Not in Person. Yet in person. The most complex entity, the hypostatic union, ever envisaged. But not an absolute impossibility. Not a Person of God collapsed from beyond infinity, after eternity, to a sperm. That is meaninglessly absurd, absurdly meaningless. Get rid of that non-sense, that dis-order, and you could make more sense, order of Jesus, God incarnate.
At conception the nature of God suffused a human. The light of God the Son shone in to, through, a Spirit fertilized ovum sized window. A window that grew to a man and the light of God the Sun intensified a billion times through that human portal. On death the window was shuttered. Winked out. On resurrection, by the Spirit?, the window opened to infinity. That’s how I make tenuous order, sense of Him. YMMV. As for what He is now, that can wait.
(A Person of) God cannot die. Any more than they can become a sperm.
It’s irrelevant how long He was dead. And the old wives’ tale was Jesus’ of Jonah.
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Romans 8:11 explains that the Holy Spirit raised Christ.
The context of John 2:19 is a rebuttal. Knowing that they would, in the end, malign whatever miracles he had performed, Jesus used a figurative statement to promise them a sign: the sign of his death and resurrection.
Out of their malice and blindness of heart, the Jews cling to the husk of that figurative statement. They understand it, literally. And from that which is impossible or absurd, they want to convict him of being a liar and an imposter.
The distinction between Jesus raising himself (v. 19) and being raised (i.e., by the Father, v. 22) is not of interest to the Gospel writer, nor us.
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'Twern’t I making a big deal about it.
hmmm, I am not so sure about this. When we read deeply into the explanation of the Gospel and of the
heavenly Sanctuary in the Books of Hebrews and Revelation, I believe that in fact the ability of Christ to raise Himself is paramount in biblical history and doctrine.
The point is, our Creator, came down to this earth…came close to us and engaged with us (just as God did when he breathed the breath of life into Adams nostrils after creating him), and then died at the hands of His own creation thus paying the ultimate price for failure of His own creation to keep the Law (“wages of sin are death”).
When we look at the sanctuary service, only perfection is capable of atoning for sin, and only God can forgive sin. Isaiah tells us very clearly that “God does not delegate authority to anyone else”.
So in summing up, I believe its critical to the entire plan of salvation that Christ (the incarnate God) performed the miracles of 
- the Incarnation via a virgin,
- died for the sins of His own creation fulfilling the requirements of His own law
- raised Himself from the dead and is forever more human. I would also suggest that Jesus also placed upon Himself the eternal need to eat of the tree of life in order to remain alive…how this works when he is also God I have no idea (its a question I will ask Him one day)
The importance of the incarnate God (Jesus) maintaining flesh and blood forevermore is very plainly obvious…it is an eternal reminder of exactly what he has done for that part of His creation that fell into sin. We will always be able to place our fingers in His side and on his own hands touching the scars of the crucifixion. That is not a spiritual description given to Thomas and also to us, it was and remains, a physical one. one cannot argue that Jesus body whilst standing in front of Thomas was not yet one of an ascended being…recall he said to Mary on the Sunday morning of His resurrection “don’t touch me for I have not yet ascended to the father”…clearly by the time he spoke to Thomas saying “place your hand in my side…” he had now ascended to the Father seeking recognition and acceptance of the atonement as per the Sanctuary service model.
You make some fine points regarding Christ’s purpose and mission. But more to the point I raised, John 3:34 says God gave Jesus the Holy Spirit without measure -there were no limits to the Spirit’s power working through Christ, who voluntarily chose not to use his divine attributes.
The point of Romans 8:11, I believe, is a clear argument - if the HS raised Jesus from the dead > and if the HS dwells in you > likewise, the HS will raise you from death just as the HS did to Christ.
Today that same Spirit unites our frail temple to Christ, culminating with the redemption of our bodies by the HS. That is a promise outlined by Paul, a great promise
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V. 22 does not mention the Father,
After He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this. Then they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.
As you go on to orthodoxly demonstrate in invoking Romans 8:11
And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.
And is the him/he the Father or God? In my 20 odd year old attempt to reconcile God the Son with the Son of God above, driven by the common error that they are coterminous, I visualized the light of the nature of God the Son as being incarnate. But you have made me question that. The Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. And did so characteristically self-effacingly, self-abnegatingly into, in, through Jesus. Sophia (fem.) the Paraclete (neut.) is the New Testament’s understated catch all explanatory mechanism and Person again.
So thank you Paul.
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Holy Spirit lives in all of us already, so we all live forever and that includes Jesus our brother
@Terry_Sampson wrote Now @riversea, tell me: What do you think “people” added after Jesus said “It is finished”. Do you think that when Jesus said “It is finished” and then died on the cross, that he is forbidden to say or do anything more after his resurrection; because if that is what you think, then I must tell you that you are mistaken.
My answer was Jesus sat down and I heard that when Jesus sat down that means it was finished.
My question was how come people kept adding to the cross?
I think Muslims also lives forever., if I understand correctly from what @bharatjj wrote, that Muslims thinks Jesus wasn’t crucified?
My questions are, what is sheep blood, is sheep Jesus too, but the Hebrews can’t break any bones from sheep., only drain blood., was any bones broken from Jesus? What about Jesus feet, were the bones broken?
Did Jesus rise, yes, because we all rise, due to Holy Spirit lives in us is the driver that does the direction area, or guides us showing direction
Our spirit lives forever in Holy Spirit and can’t be separated from Holy Spirit
So I might be clumsy in this area of what happen to Jesus during that time when Romans were extremely powerful over Hebrews even to the point that Romans forced Hebrews to do Romans laws and change some of the Hebrew laws?
Ok clumsy as this is., Holy Spirit who lives in Jesus guided Jesus direction, as the same Holy Spirit that is in us
I mean when we leave our physical body, and which way do we go., Holy Spirit draws us through
It’s not like we’re in an area and lost and trying to figure it out, instead there’s a drawing pull like through Holy Spirit white light who lives in us.,
So yes Jesus rose due to Holy Spirit does the direction area
I have no idea what happens if blocking or resisting, I don’t know everything, but my guess is if a person block or resist, what I do know is the air is extremely pull towards so
ok notice how the air is on earth, how easy it is to block Holy Spirit, well the air is more easy to allow Holy Spirit and drink Holy Spirit that its extremely difficult to resist
maybe this can go in the area, do we have free will or not., because what about that area after leaving physical body, and how that direction Holy Spirit happens
or better yet, how did we find a physical body womb, when coming to earth., how much free will did we have there
I’ll leave this as clumsy., so did Jesus raised himself., I’ll claim Holy Spirit raised him and us, because we’re not separated from Holy Spirit and Holy Spirit is the direction pull who’s fire too white light fire, a fire that’s white. or I can say fire light, maybe that’s how I should word that. See I borrow words to explain, cause no original words for me to use.
Holy Spirit lives in Jesus
But haven’t you said that the Holy Spirit lives in everyone? (I do not believe that.)
Yes I believe Holy Spirit lives in all of us
You would be mistaken.
And are you avoiding answering?:
Your biology is nearly as bad as your theology. Jesus was never a sperm. I was never a sperm. And unless you have very odd genetics unlike any ever seen among human beings, you were never a sperm. Your words are downright medieval (or earlier), though built into the very notion of our language that sperm is seed – when in fact a sperm is nothing of the kind.
Anything else you want to tell us that God cannot do. Let the enslavement of God to your theology commence.
At most I would only say that God’s omnipotence does not mean God can do whatever you say by whatever means you dictate. Logical coherence is the difference between dream and reality. So unless we are speaking only of nonsensical dreams, God is must accomplish His aims by a means which logically brings about the end He desires. So yeah God can create square circles in His dreams just as any child can do, but God can also create real things too.
Any author can write himself into a story and then have him die in that story. So perhaps that is the point you wish to make. That Jesus God transcends space-time just as an author transcends the events in the stories he writes. This is not to say that we are just a story God has written, but there are enough similarities for the metaphor to get a point across, don’t you think?
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@Dale
i don’t know how to write
when i go to God, its like going to a friend.
i just went directly to God
as far as messiahs i don’t understand why there has to be messiahs, i don’t understand why God needs help with his emotions
i have nothing against people going to their messaiahs, example you go to jesus, i have nothing against that.
what i’m sad is when people goes to their messiahs is they claim others can’t have eternal life, unless they go through messaiah
if a person can go to their messiah and understand that others who doesn’t go through their messaiah has eternal life, i wish it was like that. how people believe. so understanding all have eternal life, cause a spirit can’t die., our spirit soul lives forever,
but i know spirit soul can’t die, spirit can block or allow
how do I explain what I know?
white light i seen white light and white light lives in all of us, we can block allow
our physical body dies but our spirit lives, now allowing is allowing white light (holy spirit) to flow
i think that’s what i keep learning from holy spirit is blocking allowing
but as far as jesus, as you demand me to answer., i don’t get a lot of ____ i don’t know word., about jesus.,
i don’t know how to write this
i don’t get plague by God to got to have jesus to help God with his emotions, as if God can’t get over his anger
i hope that makes sense
i would have questions as i read from others, example i think people think more like a calculator jesus, and the cross is the math and the = is risen, then they use a loop whole which is repent
cause its like they still sin and so they have a loop hole., cause they think what jesus did isn’t good enough so they need a loop hole and that to repent
that is confusing to me, that’s why i ask why do they keep adding to the cross
i have seen online where christians debate each other
i’ve seen a thread here of universal christians
if i understand correcly universal christians can have their messiah jesus while also agreeing that jesus save everyone
i personally don’t understand why God needs help with his anger. how does blood make God happy
even God needed sheep blood to make God happy
how is that love?
a lot of things on earth i don’t understand
i just know about drinking from holy spirit and i saw white light
but as far as religion, a lot of areas of religion there’s blood
and as far as earth, i undersand there’s suffering
so there’s a lot i don’t know
this is sloppy writing due to you pressue me
i did address this with terry
so question, why does God need blood to get over anger and be happy
i understand from block and allow, but i also understand learning from God how to block less and allow more with in siatuations; so i bascally keep learning from holy spirit in situation how to block less and allow more
that’s the aera i keep learning
as far as jesus, i told this to terry, what is sad for christians is when they accept jesus, then they got to go through pain of knowing the ones around them who didn’t accept jesus will be spiritiaul dead,
and but i don’t go through that, cause i know the spirit don’t die
so if i were going to do the accept jesus it would have to be the universal christian way
cause for one thing i do know is spirit never dies
so but then again what am i accepting jesus of., to make God happy as God gets blood?
see, that’s the other area, i don’t think through sin
i think through me can go to holy spirit just as i am, and its a relationship and learning from holy spirit
i don’t think through performance, no sin. I think i use the word block instead of sin
i’m not sure what all people have as sin
i do understand holy spirit is unconditional love
i’ll continue later
ok continue
i think I had the word block as how you would have the word sin
but i don’t think through wash sin, but instead learn from holy spirit how to block less and allow more of holy spirit, so i think more about learning
here is an example: i struggle around my dad who keeps wanting me to listen as he talks. and this drains me.
now i could be blocking holy spirit
so i’m still learning this but how to allow holy spirit more in that situation
so is that sinning and jesus had to go to cross because i get drain when listening to dad?
instead I think about i want to learn from holy spirit how i can allow holy spirit feed me and flow through me while i’m listenning to dad and also learn tools how to speak more to my dad, so it can be more a verbal back and forth conversation instead of dad talking non stop for hours
see there’s an example.
one time i was in an elevator, and i didn’t realize it, but i look at the corner wall and i forgot to face the person
i realized the person was upset
ok i felt bad about this.
did jesus need to die on the cross for that?
that was an awkward one because i never could be able to go to the person and explain that i forgot to exchange small talk
this is horrible writing
so maybe what confuses me about jesus, is how God wanted blood., and no broken bones either.,
its as if jesus bone was broken God still be angry
lets see, sin, oh, i remember a sin, I knew a familiy where females can’t cut hair., and a girl got gum in her hair
did jesus die on the cross just incase if the mother would use sissors to cut hair?
the mother refuse to cut the hair and torn the hair, however the mother lost it with her anger, teh girl was crying
i saw this
after that scene i never seen that family again, but it stay with me a memory, as i asked what is sin
what was it like for that girl when she goes to God
Is there such a thing as injustice? And conversely, is there such a thing as justice?
This is an interesting point…so, how did the immaculate conception actually work according to Biologos theology? Did God plant an embryo inside Mary or was it actually a sperm?
for reference, the Old Testament regularly makes mention of men’s seed. I think from memory isn’t there a story where a man allowed his seed to spill on the ground instead of inside a women…was he not punished for doing this? I will lookup the story and edit this post if someone else doesn’t find it first…,oh my wife reminds me, the women was Tamar (Judah’s daughter in law)
Here is the biblical text
ח וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוּדָה לְאוֹנָן, בֹּא אֶל-אֵשֶׁת אָחִיךָ וְיַבֵּם אֹתָהּ; וְהָקֵם זֶרַע, לְאָחִיךָ. 8 And Judah said unto Onan: ‘Go in unto thy brother’s wife, and perform the duty of a husband’s brother unto her, and raise up seed to thy brother.’ ט וַיֵּדַע אוֹנָן, כִּי לֹּא לוֹ יִהְיֶה הַזָּרַע; וְהָיָה אִם-בָּא אֶל-אֵשֶׁת אָחִיו, וְשִׁחֵת אַרְצָה, לְבִלְתִּי נְתָן-זֶרַע, לְאָחִיו. 9 And Onan knew that the seed would not be his; and it came to pass when he went in unto his brother’s wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest he should give seed to his brother.
clearly the bible uses the term seed as a description of the word we use “sperm”.
this suggests that indeed it was sperm that God implanted into Mary via the Holy Spirit.