Probably goes to show how much mixing there is of religious ideology and how all faiths can be changed by ever evolving philosophies and the mainline views of others.
Vinnie
Yeah true. Kinda stupid though to take someones else religion practise or something else about it and mix it with yours. Like if you dont like your current one why dont convert to another? All this mixing thing shows that the religion youve now created its false.
If you think about it I think Jews and Christians did the same. In the former case early Jews with little conception of a soul or afterlife but later on we see developments in this area due to foreign interactions so that by the time of Jesus many believed in the resurrection of the dead. Nature of souls is still wishy washy but may have developed as well. Many think Greek philosophy influenced Christianity. The issues of immortal souls driving the body is one example. All religions evolve and change over time. Augustine used a mistranslation of Romans 5 and built a whole doctrine of original sin that carried on to the present day. How much Christian thought has been influenced by this? If religions don’t grow and evolve then they die.
Vinnie
Im sorry but the core message of Christianiry and Judaism never changed. We believe in Jesus as the first Christians did(and i assume jews believe still in YWhW. Christianity never “evolved” to believe in other things. What i was saying is that for example by believing in the afterlife Buddhists go contrary to the words of Buddha himself.
I mean you could say the same that by us believing in evolution we go against what Christ believed ,but hey we cant know what he meant when he quoted adam and eve. Although i do believe they might have existed
What in your view is the core message? I see a lot of core messages from different groups of Christians.
For some the core message that if you don’t believe in Jesus you go to hell and are tortured for eternity.
My core message is that God incarnated himself, suffered and died for us and was resurrected.
Mine doesn’t involve penal substitution, hell, original sin or many other commonly believed doctrines. It also doesn’t stress giving your intellectual consent to “facts” of history as a requirement for salvation.
Vinnie
History tells us that the first grouyp of Christians worshiped the Son and The Father (they were a little confused about as the role of the Holy Spirit but it was there . I could dive into their customs and practises but itll take long.Thats what i believe is the core message .
These came later.Although some are as ancient as christianity itself they came later than the original message
See my thread Were the early Christians "Trinitarians"?
Another universalist huh?
I commented in that thread. I liked the graphic by Tertullian in your link. I am more inclined to a triad than a trinity since I tend to distinguish between a divine mystery and blatant nonsense. The trinity falls in the latter category for me.
Yes, Jesus was worshipped and venerated in the early Church as God’s Son and Promised one and quickly came to be thought of as God but whether any Jewish Christians meant this in the full ontological sense is debatable.
Not necessarily. I would like to be but I am a die hard proponent of free will. People have to make genuine choices or it doesn’t matter to me. So the idea that some could reject God/Jesus when they fully understand him has to remain open to me. Seems unlikely but people do unlikely things often enough.
Vinnie
Aint that contradictory to you not believing in hell?
I mean they wprshiped him in a divine status so…
I don’t know what to make of hell or the afterlife. Many Christians profess far more confidence than me. I am not even sure I agree with bodily resurrection for all of us. Afterlife of some form, whether physical, spiritual or a combination I do not know. I don’t think there is a literal lake of fire anymore than I think there are streets made of atoms with 79 protons in heaven. There may be some justice that needs to be handed out by God. In the end, a lot of talk about hell is pedagogically motivated to me.
Vinnie
I agree but branching this into trinitarian thought is a non sequitur.
I believe hell is a place where you are seperated from God. The whole thing about fire ,and coldrums with boiling water etc etc are just metaphors. Do you believe in heaven? I mean since you stated
I suppose you hold the same belief for heaven meaning that you dont know ehat to think of it
Yes. Not 100% sure what heaven entails. I think it has to be radically different. An eternity of any physical activity, no matter how fun seems boring to the point of being eternal torment. It’s not an eternal or gun for sure. I don’t think the Bible tells us much one way or another. Just that death is not the end. There is more to our story. For me, that is the only thing that makes the problem of evil tenable. If this life was it, I don’t think I could love God or worship him. Not because I will die. I can handle eternal non-existence as there as nothing to fear about as I’ll be gone (even though the thought of death is still vexing), but a lot of people in this world draw short straws and get dealt a really crappy deck. Abused, tortured and killed. Hard to fathom the goodness of God if that’s the end of the story for them. I’m not the “pot can’t question the potter type.” I’m more of the Abraham type. Shall not the Lord of all the earth do what is just? The afterlife is for then. We live very much in the now and have a lot of work to do. No point in excessively worrying about the future or dreaming to die so that we can go back to Eden. That’s not the point or God’s will IMHO.
Vinnie
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To be in God’s presence forever will not be boring.
The potter can do as He pleases and Abraham is our example of trusting God.
To see and fully know the one who became sin to free me from my slavery to it will never be boring. The Father and the Son are the reward. Man cannot conceive what is instore for those who love God. Mankind is so flesh bound, that an eternal existence in the presence of God does not bring them any joy now or hope for the future. That is enough evidence to show how evil mankind is.
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And that is why I think Heaven must be radically different. Any activity I can think of would get boring to the point of eternal torment long before making it to eternity.
Vinnie
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Today I get to walk in the liberty of the Kingdom of Heaven. I’m going to work.
I get to serve my neighbor as I serve Jesus.
I get to obey my Father who tells me to work so I can supply my needs and help others with theirs.
I get to work not for the lust, love or trust of money but for the benefit of others and for the love and glory of God.
I get to provide a useful service for those who need it.
I get to proclaim freedom from sin through Jesus to those i come across.
I GET TO LIVE IN THE FREEDOM OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN NOW!
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No one else would let me live this life I live in Jesus.
In Israel Jews are either religious (observant) or non-religious. The religious can include ultra-orthodox who actually reject the modern state of Israel! They don’t have the same break downs we have in the U.S.
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Yes, it is interesting that the Orthodox are not Zionists and that they see the diaspora as just.
What the ultra-orthodox want sadly its like Sharia law .Basically they want a nation of themselves guided by the mosaic law where everyone needs to keep it
It’s worse than that – they want Talmudic law to be enforced, not just Mosaic. Bring on the Pharisees.