History tells us that the first grouyp of Christians worshiped the Son and The Father (they were a little confused about as the role of the Holy Spirit but it was there . I could dive into their customs and practises but itll take long.Thats what i believe is the core message .
These came later.Although some are as ancient as christianity itself they came later than the original message
See my thread Were the early Christians "Trinitarians"?
Another universalist huh?
I commented in that thread. I liked the graphic by Tertullian in your link. I am more inclined to a triad than a trinity since I tend to distinguish between a divine mystery and blatant nonsense. The trinity falls in the latter category for me.
Yes, Jesus was worshipped and venerated in the early Church as Godās Son and Promised one and quickly came to be thought of as God but whether any Jewish Christians meant this in the full ontological sense is debatable.
Not necessarily. I would like to be but I am a die hard proponent of free will. People have to make genuine choices or it doesnāt matter to me. So the idea that some could reject God/Jesus when they fully understand him has to remain open to me. Seems unlikely but people do unlikely things often enough.
Vinnie
Aint that contradictory to you not believing in hell?
I mean they wprshiped him in a divine status soā¦
I donāt know what to make of hell or the afterlife. Many Christians profess far more confidence than me. I am not even sure I agree with bodily resurrection for all of us. Afterlife of some form, whether physical, spiritual or a combination I do not know. I donāt think there is a literal lake of fire anymore than I think there are streets made of atoms with 79 protons in heaven. There may be some justice that needs to be handed out by God. In the end, a lot of talk about hell is pedagogically motivated to me.
Vinnie
I agree but branching this into trinitarian thought is a non sequitur.
I believe hell is a place where you are seperated from God. The whole thing about fire ,and coldrums with boiling water etc etc are just metaphors. Do you believe in heaven? I mean since you stated
I suppose you hold the same belief for heaven meaning that you dont know ehat to think of it
Yes. Not 100% sure what heaven entails. I think it has to be radically different. An eternity of any physical activity, no matter how fun seems boring to the point of being eternal torment. Itās not an eternal or gun for sure. I donāt think the Bible tells us much one way or another. Just that death is not the end. There is more to our story. For me, that is the only thing that makes the problem of evil tenable. If this life was it, I donāt think I could love God or worship him. Not because I will die. I can handle eternal non-existence as there as nothing to fear about as Iāll be gone (even though the thought of death is still vexing), but a lot of people in this world draw short straws and get dealt a really crappy deck. Abused, tortured and killed. Hard to fathom the goodness of God if thatās the end of the story for them. Iām not the āpot canāt question the potter type.ā Iām more of the Abraham type. Shall not the Lord of all the earth do what is just? The afterlife is for then. We live very much in the now and have a lot of work to do. No point in excessively worrying about the future or dreaming to die so that we can go back to Eden. Thatās not the point or Godās will IMHO.
Vinnie
To be in Godās presence forever will not be boring.
The potter can do as He pleases and Abraham is our example of trusting God.
To see and fully know the one who became sin to free me from my slavery to it will never be boring. The Father and the Son are the reward. Man cannot conceive what is instore for those who love God. Mankind is so flesh bound, that an eternal existence in the presence of God does not bring them any joy now or hope for the future. That is enough evidence to show how evil mankind is.
And that is why I think Heaven must be radically different. Any activity I can think of would get boring to the point of eternal torment long before making it to eternity.
Vinnie
Today I get to walk in the liberty of the Kingdom of Heaven. Iām going to work.
I get to serve my neighbor as I serve Jesus.
I get to obey my Father who tells me to work so I can supply my needs and help others with theirs.
I get to work not for the lust, love or trust of money but for the benefit of others and for the love and glory of God.
I get to provide a useful service for those who need it.
I get to proclaim freedom from sin through Jesus to those i come across.
I GET TO LIVE IN THE FREEDOM OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN NOW!
No one else would let me live this life I live in Jesus.
In Israel Jews are either religious (observant) or non-religious. The religious can include ultra-orthodox who actually reject the modern state of Israel! They donāt have the same break downs we have in the U.S.
Yes, it is interesting that the Orthodox are not Zionists and that they see the diaspora as just.
What the ultra-orthodox want sadly its like Sharia law .Basically they want a nation of themselves guided by the mosaic law where everyone needs to keep it
Itās worse than that ā they want Talmudic law to be enforced, not just Mosaic. Bring on the Pharisees.
āThe depravity of man is at once the most empirically verifiable reality but at the same time the most intellectually resisted fact.ā
Malcolm Muggeridge
Christian Nationalism is just as bad, and in some cases worse.
I removed all the recent exchanges with Cody as that was just spiraling out of control, and not on the topic at hand. Please keep to the topic of this thread.
In reference to the OP, I have an example on how God worked in my life to let me live in the liberty that Jesus provided for us from sin.
In my work I apply a certain product to a portion of a house. I initially bid the job low because of missed judgment that the marterial I was applying it to would soak up vast amounts of the product. As Iām doing the job I realized it was going to take three times the amount. The temptation arose to apply what normally would do the job, but the Spirit convinced me that would be wrong. So my spirit overcame the temptation and I did not submit to the love of or trust in money. The salvation that is in Jesus saved me at that moment from sin. God by His Spirit worked in my life.
He also lead my customer to hire me for a much bigger job.
Those who trust in the Lord will live in the freedom that His Spirit provides.
āLet your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.ā -Colossians 4:6
This is a place for gracious dialogue about science and faith. Please read our FAQ/Guidelines before posting.