Is there a standpoint from which the creation days in Genesis 1 are described as 24 hours per day?

Faith & Science Conversation
61

Have you ever considered actually doing some research instead of just throwing out opinions? Scholars have plenty of evidence that in the ancient near east the view was of the earth as a flat disc surrounded by water along the edge of the solid dome of the sky, with water above that and below the underworld.

Of course they did – when you live in a region that is mostly flat, if you stand on something high and look all around, you see yourself at the center of a circle.

No, it isn’t. Hebrew has a word for that and the writer didn’t use it. At best the Hebrew can mean a dome.

Where is that in the text?

You’re really good at making claims about the scriptures that cannot be supported from the text.

And constantly misinterpreted because people impose their own worldview on the text.

1 Like
62

That’s an excellent point!

63

Have I ever said that, the Bible is concerned with science.??

Well I completely disagree with that statement.
What I see in the real world in the here and now, is absolutely consistent with what a global flood would produce across the entire planet. Flood geology papers that I have read are supported by both the evidence we observe in the world today that resulted from the global flood AND what the Bible tells us about the global flood of Noah’s day when all the high mountains were covered by water and all life on land was extinguished except for those on the ark.

The rivers named in the Bible for the preflood period such as the Tigris and the Euphrates would not be the same rivers in the same location post flood. The global flood was catastrophic, responsible for depositing uncountable trillions upon trillions of tons of sediment and fossils, all over the planet that was completely reshaped from a single land mass surrounded by ocean to the world we know today with multiple continents. Right now, there exists coal and oil in sedimentary strata in Antarctica, under the ocean basins and on all continents, a fact that is totally consistent with the fact of the global flood about 4,500 years ago. The tectonic movements alone that ripped the land apart would have totally destroyed the preflood world, so that all that remains now is sedimentary strata and well preserved fossils.

Genesis 7
20 The water prevailed fifteen cubits higher, and the mountains were covered. 21 So all creatures that moved on the earth perished: birds, livestock, animals, and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind; 22 of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died. 23 So He wiped out every living thing that was upon the face of the land, from mankind to animals, to crawling things, and the birds of the sky, and they were wiped out from the earth; and only Noah was left, together with those that were with him in the ark. 24 The water prevailed upon the earth for 150 days.

Genesis 8
21…the Lord said to Himself, “I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done.

22 While the earth remains, Seedtime and harvest, Cold and heat, Summer and winter, And day and night Shall not cease.”

Why do you not understand that the flood was global and destroyed every living thing?

64

By by plain reading. Hello AiG.

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65

Simply because the light in verse 1 on the first day is from an unspecified source as previously stated, but it obviously wasn’t from the sun the moon or the stars that were not as yet created at that time, but the lights put in place on the fourth day are the sun, the moon and the stars. Surely you can see that, it is very simple and straightforward. Can you see how easy that is to understand?

Why do you Biologos believing people always seem to want to complicate every straightforward text that God has provided for our instruction?

God Bless,
jon

66

Those who work in the industry would be fired for wasting time on this. Here is how the pro’s do it.

Basin and Petroleum System Modeling

The modeler must then analyze the present-day geometric model to describe the deposition
chronology and physical properties of the basin- fill materials and to identify postdepositional
processes—an undertaking that will enable reconstruction of the basin and its layers and
fluids throughout geologic time. This analysis establishes a basin history that is subdivided into an uninterrupted series of stratigraphic events of specified age and duration. These events are
summarized in a petroleum system events chart (next page). Each event represents a span of time during which deposition, nondeposition or erosion occurred. This summary describes the
chronology of the geologic elements in a petroleum system. Syn- and postdepositional episodes
of folding, faulting, salt tectonics, igneous intrusion, diagenetic alteration and hydrothermal
activity can be included to explain the model. Determining the timing of trap formation and of
the remaining processes—generation, migration and accumulation of hydrocarbons

The absolute age of each layer in the basin and petroleum system model is an important
parameter for determining the timing of the processes that generate, move and trap petroleum.
Age information may be available from paleontologic data, radiometric dating, fission-track dates
and magnetic-reversal tracking.15 In many basins, known petroleum source rocks have been
assigned to global geologic periods based on geochemical and biostratigraphic determinations.

Hydrocarbon formations are consistent with geology and incompatible with a young Earth.

1 Like
67

Example:
On the first day of the tournament, three players are disqualifed.

The logical sense of temporal-order of the statement above is:
First day preceded the disqualifying event.

BUT in that statement, there is already light+earth.
Before that “first day (of the tournament)”, there is already morning(light) passed.

So… how we define that before there is light+earth, Day-1 is already begin ?

A statement like:
In the beginning of Day-1, God create the heavens & earth.
Doesn’t make sense to me, Jon.

If it’s argued:
But the Bible doesn’t say “In the beginning of Day-1”.
The Bible say “God create heavens and earth on Day-1”.

Me:
it still the same thing:
The first hour of the evening of Day-1 is already exist before the light+earth exist.

I don’t know when the first hour of day one occurred

We can know, if the light already exist.
After the light exist, part of the earth is evening (“world-A”), other part of the earth is morning (“world-B”).

So… the first hour of Day-1 of world-A began in evening while the first hour of Day-1 of world-B began in the morning.

I’m not “disturbed” by that, Jon.
The thing which bugging me is that I can’t make a conclusion that the first hour of Day-1 experienced by the whole part of the earth began in the evening.

Because if I hold that the first hour of Day-1 experienced by the whole part of the earth began in the evening., then world-B will say “nop… we don’t even have Day-1 yet”

When the world-A say “now we just have the second evening begin”, then world-B will say “nop… we haven’t experienced the second evening yet”.

Both part experience the same 24hours time passing. BUT the environment is different, world-A is evening, world-B is morning.

EXCEPT:
There is no other part of the earth. If > = light, then earth = ||. > ||.
So, the second | can never get the light, only the first | which can get light.

Only then it does make sense for a statement:
the first hour of Day-1 began in the evening.

In other words,
only if the earth is flat then the first hour of Day-1 began in the evening. is the truth, globally true.

But if the earth is spherical, then the first hour of Day-1 began in the evening is not the truth, because it’s just partially true in the point of view of world-A.

68

Those who work in the industry would be fired for wasting time on this. Here is how the pro’s do it.

Basin and Petroleum System Modeling

The modeler must then analyze the present-day geometric model to describe the deposition
chronology and physical properties of the basin- fill materials and to identify postdepositional
processes—an undertaking that will enable reconstruction of the basin and its layers and
fluids throughout geologic time. This analysis establishes a basin history that is subdivided into an uninterrupted series of stratigraphic events of specified age and duration. These events are
summarized in a petroleum system events chart (next page). Each event represents a span of time during which deposition, nondeposition or erosion occurred. This summary describes the
chronology of the geologic elements in a petroleum system. Syn- and postdepositional episodes
of folding, faulting, salt tectonics, igneous intrusion, diagenetic alteration and hydrothermal
activity can be included to explain the model. Determining the timing of trap formation and of
the remaining processes—generation, migration and accumulation of hydrocarbons

The absolute age of each layer in the basin and petroleum system model is an important
parameter for determining the timing of the processes that generate, move and trap petroleum.
Age information may be available from paleontologic data, radiometric dating, fission-track dates
and magnetic-reversal tracking.15 In many basins, known petroleum source rocks have been
assigned to global geologic periods based on geochemical and biostratigraphic determinations.

Really!
The list of procedural parameters in your post don’t come close to even begin to address the quote you selected from one of my posts about the worldwide existence of coal and oil in sedimentary strata.

It may surprise you to know that I have some experience in regulating coal and oil industry extraction works through stratigraphic mapping of rocks entrapping hydrocarbon fuel and groundwater aquifers. Some industry work I conducted included detailed mapping of geologic strata around mine extraction locations to understand the local hydro-geology and determine where monitoring bore locations should be placed to assist in preventing aquifer contamination from coal, oil and natural gas extractive industries. Thus, please do not attempt to impress me with a list of in many cases questionable procedures that are already based on a deeptime worldview.

The fact remains, “there exists coal and oil in sedimentary strata in Antarctica, under the ocean basins and on all continents, a fact that is totally consistent with the fact of the global flood about 4,500 years ago.” If you claim to be a Bible believing Christian, I do not understand why you do not believe the Bible.

By the way you forgot to mention Helium diffusion rates that are absolutely empirically consistent with a maximum age of about 6,000 years for the leakage of He from granitic rocks that were collected at depths of a few miles below the surface.
If you want to read more about that, an excellent and fascinating paper as a PDF file can be found at:

God Bless,
jon

69

I’m going to assume that you’re telling the truth here @Burrawang, and that you really do have the experience that you claim to have. I am going to recommend that others do likewise.

However, this does mean that you should expect to be held to a much higher standard in terms of the factual accuracy and technical integrity of your claims. In particular, you should be expected to know and understand the basic rules and principles of accurate and honest measurement. You should also be expected to understand and do any necessary maths when challenged, to substantiate your claims with evidence, and to make sure that the information you are providing in support of your position is kept up to date. You should certainly not be making claims that demonstrate an ignorance of GCSE level mathematics or the basic principles of how measurement works, nor should you be making claims that can be falsified with nothing more than a simple Google search. Nor should you be presenting flawed studies from several decades ago as if they were representative of the state of the art in evolutionary research.

People with limited scientific experience can be excused on the grounds of ignorance if they make claims that are inaccurate, incorrect, incoherent, misleading or outdated. Since you have told us that you have relevant experience in the field, you do not have the luxury of that excuse.

1 Like
70

But in the pov of YEC, it does matter.
Because “it was evening and it was morning” is explained by YEC that it means a progression of time. So, the first hour of day-1 occured in the evening according to the YEC.

when the Sabbath shows up in Genesis 2:2, it picks up the same order of counting a day. It started in the evening. https://www.askanadventistfriend.com/adventist-beliefs/sabbath/why-is-the-sabbath-from-sundown-to-sundown/

According to the quote above, the existence of Day-1 is not after the separation but BEFORE the earth exist:

and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

So, according to the SDA, the chronological order :

  • ----- the first hour of 24 hours starts ----
  1. Evening exist (Gen 1:1)
  2. Earth created (Gen 1:1)
  3. Light created (Gen 1:3)
  4. Separation (Gen 1:4)
  5. Morning exist (Gen 1:5)
  • ----- the last hour of 24 hours ends----

Using the YEC argument:
God not wait for billion of years to create the earth, in a blink of an eye, the whole of the universe suddenly exist

I agree with the argument (as I put myself that I don’t have a knowledge about evolution), but still… the “WAITING” to the next creation is there, isn’t it ?

  • ----- the first second of 24 hours starts ----
  1. Evening exist (Gen 1:1)
  2. Earth created (Gen 1:1) … one second
  3. Light created (Gen 1:3) … in that one second of #2
  4. Separation (Gen 1:4) … in that one second of #2
  5. Morning exist (Gen 1:5)
  • ----- the last second of 24 hours ends----

Please cmiiw.

1 Like
71

Thus it is incumbent upon your good self to be truthful and not make the outlandish accusations that you have leveled against me and other Christians who believe the Bible means what it so plainly says in earlier posts under this subject.

The fact of the matter is that you appear to have a jaundiced stereotype view of what people like myself believe.
The truth of all being discussed on this Biologos website, is one of worldviews through which an individual interprets the world we live in. As professing Christians, being truthful is a given, or at least it should be a given. We all have an audience of One in Heaven who sees all that we do. We should always be mindful of Him and make our actions, our words and thoughts in alignment with Jesus who showed us how to live.

We should not be surprised when we are attacked for what we believe, as we are not of this world and the world hates those that love the Lord and are His.

If I understand correctly from what you have inferred about yourself on a previous occasion, I’m certainly not sure, but see that it is possible that you once believed as I do now, that evolution is a deceptive unfalsifiable lie, devoid of any real supporting evidence and that belief in eons of the deeptime billions of years is just a modern myth that sets itself up against the truth of real creation about 6,000 Earth years ago as the Bible so clearly informs us through simple addition of the provided genealogies.

God Bless,
jon

72

I’m sorry Jon, but that’s just deflection. Whataboutism.

If you think that I am in error to dispute a particular young earthist claim, then it is up to you to point out the mistakes in my reasoning. If I have misunderstood the procedures involved, or haven’t taken something into account, it is up to you to explain to me what I am overlooking or have misunderstood. If you think that I am wrong to say that a young earthist teacher is lying, then it is up to you to justify their claims and to explain to me precisely why I am in error to say that they are lying. But you do need to provide evidence, explain precisely what mistakes I am making, and justify any corrections that you bring. You will not do this by simply hand-waving away the points that I make as “outlandish accusations.”

It’s one thing to be attacked or persecuted for genuine and honest Christian faith, Jon. It is a different matter entirely to be confronted for sloppy thinking, falsehood, unjustified assertions, or resistance to critique.

Jon, my worldview is simply that honest reporting and honest interpretation of accurate information is non-negotiable. Honesty has rules and if you don’t want to be accused of dishonesty then you need to stick to them. If you think that I am not applying the rules fairly, or that the rules that I am applying are invalid, then it is up to you to explain exactly why you think they are unfair or invalid. If you are in any doubt about what rules I am applying or why I am applying them, then it is up to you to ask for clarification.

I’ve explained what I’ve changed my position on here:

Bottom line: I’ve learned the hard way, through painful experience, that not taking mainstream science seriously is simply not an option. I’ve learned the hard way that science has rules and honesty has rules, and that not sticking to the rules has consequences. The change that I’ve made has been is simply to tighten my standards and to insist that the rules be adhered to by anyone trying to challenge a scientific theory, evolution included. If you want to try to make a case that evolution is a “deceptive unfalsifiable lie,” then that’s up to you, but I expect you to stick to the rules while doing so.

2 Likes
73

karmareko tomo

24m

But in the pov of YEC, it does matter.
Because “it was evening and it was morning” is explained by YEC that it means a progression of time. So, the first hour of day-1 occured in the evening according to the YEC.

when the Sabbath shows up in Genesis 2:2, it picks up the same order of counting a day. It started in the evening. https://www.askanadventistfriend.com/adventist-beliefs/sabbath/why-is-the-sabbath-from-sundown-to-sundown/

According to the quote above, the existence of Day-1 is not after the separation but BEFORE the earth exist:

and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

So, according to the SDA, the chronological order :

  • ----- the first hour of 24 hours starts ----
  1. Evening exist (Gen 1:1)
  2. Earth created (Gen 1:1)
  3. Light created (Gen 1:3)
  4. Separation (Gen 1:4)
  5. Morning exist (Gen 1:5)
  • ----- the last hour of 24 hours ends----

Using the YEC argument:
God not wait for billion of years to create the earth, in a blink of an eye, the whole of the universe suddenly exist

I agree with the argument (as I put myself that I don’t have a knowledge about evolution), but still… the “WAITING” to the next creation is there, isn’t it ?

  • ----- the first second of 24 hours starts ----
  1. Evening exist (Gen 1:1)
  2. Earth created (Gen 1:1) … one second
  3. Light created (Gen 1:3) … in that one second of #2
  4. Separation (Gen 1:4) … in that one second of #2
  5. Morning exist (Gen 1:5)
  • ----- the last second of 24 hours ends----

Please cmiiw.

Hi Reko,

     thank you for your post. I am sorry but I am having a little difficulty in getting to the questions you have and the cause of the problems with understanding the straightforward creation account text in Genesis.

I don’t really know why we need to think about at what second various components of the creation historical narrative occur. God has clearly informed us through the Holy Spirit inspired author of Genesis that creation occurred in six normal consecutive days. The genealogies in the Bible clearly inform us when the creation took place, through simple addition, creation occurred about 6,000 Earth years ago.
As far as I am concerned that is all need to know.
We are commanded to observe the Sabbath and I do understand that it is likely that the Seventh Day Adventists have the correct day for the Sabbath. It is of course more prudent to follow what Jewish people held as the Sabbath day and again it is Saturday.
The fact that most of the western world Christian denominations have Sunday as the Sabbath is fine as far as I understand the scriptures. We are told in the NT to let each one do according to his own conscience and in so doing each one is doing what is right and good.

But to hopefully complete somewhat relevantly answering your question, it maybe as you say, and it may be different, the text is silent about the breakdown within the first day.
It is enough for me to know that in the beginning God created Heaven and Earth as the Bible states on the first normal day, (that we know as a 24 hour period, or in another way as one full revolution of the Earth), in:

Genesis 1

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 And the earth was a formless and desolate emptiness, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters. 3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness He called “night.” And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

Sorry Reko, but I still really don’t understand why you are having difficulty understanding the clear text in the first five verses of Genesis.

God Bless,
jon

1 Like
74

That is what I draw as my own conclusion after reading Genesis 1. I’m as the “YEC” (doesn’t have evolution knowledge) find out that it can’t be literal 24hour-Day.

“and there was evening, and there was morning” verse can’t be interprated as a progression of time where Day-1 started in the evening.

Therefore (to me, the “YEC”) a statement "the first hour of Day-1 starts in the evening" —> cannot be the truth (globally true).

On the other hand of my conclusion :
only if in reality the earth is flat then "the first hour of Day-1 starts in the evening" is the truth.

Yes. I dig deep enough the internet about my question, but I can’t find any YEC article which cover about the evening and the morning happen simultaneously on earth. Too bad … I can’t find any YEC forum… that’s why I register here in Biologos Forum to ask about that.

Thanks James for the reply.

2 Likes
75

I’m not sure I follow what you mean here, but I presume you are insisting that the flood in Noah’s day was a local flood and not a global flood.

But don’t you see that makes absolutely no sense!
Why would Noah spend about 100 years of his life building a huge ship without power tools and machinery, if all he had to do was move several hundred miles to higher ground?
As I have already written above, but you have failed to address, I will add bold text to make the parts of the relevant text more obvious for you.

The rivers named in the Bible for the preflood period such as the Tigris and the Euphrates would not be the same rivers in the same location post flood. The global flood was catastrophic, responsible for depositing uncountable trillions upon trillions of tons of sediment and fossils, all over the planet that was completely reshaped from a single land mass surrounded by ocean to the world we know today with multiple continents. Right now, there exists coal and oil in sedimentary strata in Antarctica, under the ocean basins and on all continents, a fact that is totally consistent with the fact of the global flood about 4,500 years ago. The tectonic movements alone that ripped the land apart would have totally destroyed the preflood world, so that all that remains now is sedimentary strata and well preserved fossils.

Genesis 7
20 The water prevailed fifteen cubits higher, and the mountains were covered. 21 So all creatures that moved on the earth perished: birds, livestock, animals, and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind; 22 of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died. 23 So He wiped out every living thing that was upon the face of the land, from mankind to animals, to crawling things, and the birds of the sky, and they were wiped out from the earth; and only Noah was left, together with those that were with him in the ark. 24 The water prevailed upon the earth for 150 days.

Genesis 8
21…the Lord said to Himself, “I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done.

22 While the earth remains, Seedtime and harvest, Cold and heat, Summer and winter, And day and night Shall not cease.”

Why do you not understand that the flood was global and destroyed every living thing?

Surely you can see that the texts above in Genesis 7 and 8 make it absolutely clear that the flood was GLOBAL. The whole planet was underwater.
Fact: There is enough water right now to submerge the entire planet to a depth of about 3 kilometres if the planet surface was smoothed out to a constant surface level of the Earth in all directions.
In other words the water of Noah’s flood is still there to this day, it is just that it is now partly in deep ocean basins, some in the polar and and high mountain ice caps, some in freshwater lakes and watercourses, but mainly in the crust the rocks are saturated to great depths far deeper than the ocean basins.

God Bless,
jon

76

I have difficulty to understand it because…

Because I feel that I do need to think about another component in my knowledge, which are:

  1. the evening and morning happen simultaneously on spherical earth
  2. Light+Earth must exist first, then Day-1 of earth can be perceived.
    (if there is no earth+light yet, how can I determine it is Day-1 of earth ?)

Even if it’s argued that:
Once after earth+light is created all at once simultaneously —> Day-1 (the first hour of Day-1) consequently exist.

It started in the evening . https://www.askanadventistfriend.com/adventist-beliefs/sabbath/why-is-the-sabbath-from-sundown-to-sundown/

Me:
Then it can’t be said that “Day-1 started IN the evening”, because evening (of Day-1) is the consequence of the existence of the earth. But then it still need flat earth is a fact to state that “evening time is the first hour of Day-1 of earth” is the TRUTH.

So, if I don’t think about other components in my knowledge, then of course I will say that:
“evening time is the first hour of Day-1 of earth” is the TRUTH.
This is the state where I don’t need to read the Bible. Just receive it on what my parents told me.

But because I do think about other componnents in my knowledge, then
“evening time is the first hour of Day-1 of earth” is NOT THE TRUTH. It’s just partially true.

Is the statement ‘Earth Day-1 started IN the evening’ the truth to you?

Thanks Joe.

77

Let me know if you ever do. Years ago when I looked, I couldn’t find any that would allow any voices to be present other than those who would echo their prescribed scripts. I suspect this may still be the case.

But their voices are welcomed here since we believe that real seekers of truth have nothing to fear.

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78

Thanks for the reply, Mervin.

Yes, I will put the link here if I find there is a YEC forum where the member can ask a question.

I couldn’t find any that would allow any voices to be present

Since I’m also still unable to find the YEC forum site, it seems to me that it is their strategy to not having a forum so even beginners in YEC will be unable to ask questions. They have to simply swallow what they are told or read. Maybe ?

79

I don’t, You brought up that you consider the Bible a science reference, and those are just a few of the scientific inaccuracies the Bible references. You claim ancient people knew the earth was a sphere, yet were unable to find a word to articulate that and instead use the word circle. I am sure they had balls with which the children played. There is nothing wrong with that, as the Bible was not affirming those things to be true, just referencing them in revealing scientific truth. It is you affirming that scientific proof is present and part of the purpose of the Bible, and as such, you have a lot of explaining to do. Evolutionists do not read evolution into the Bible in general, but allow the Bible to speak for itself. You can’t say that for YEC folk.

80

Where does the Bible state that these were not the same rivers? Nor is there anything about the geography being changed, ect, ect. All of that is extra-biblical.

Loechelt’s critique remains convincing.

A Response to the RATE Team Regarding Helium Diffusion in Zircon

The validity of radiometric dating is supported by thousands of studies published in both general and dedicated journals. To insist that they are all wrong is an extraordinary claim requiring commensurate proof, not just something cooked up by the RATE team. There is no problem with Helium. There is a huge, intrinsic problem with accelerated decay by release of planet destroying heat.

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