Well yes, if you have the post-1546 Catholic Bible then Wisdom is part of the Bible, but since that canon didn’t exist in the first century, and since it didn’t exist in the earliest centuries of Christianity, it doesn’t affect my point. You might as well mention the Book of Mormon.
That’s addressed in the literature. Mainstream scholars who spend their lives studying the Bible haven’t somehow overlooked or forgotten about it.
I’m not disagreeing with you, Jonathan, regarding the modern scholarly consensus that the canonical teaching of the Protestant Old Testament makes no reference to an “immortal soul” independent of the body. I’m just pointing out that for millions of Christians the deuterocanon is scripture.
The resurrection of the dead and eternal punishment\reward is nontheless taught, for instance, by later post-exilic books such as Daniel (likely influenced by Zoroastrianism). That belief would go on to have major significance for the NT authors.
The New Testament is a somewhat more debated text, precisely owing to the fact that the idea of “soul immortality” had clearly entered Jewish thought a few centuries before the birth of Jesus as evidenced by the Book of Wisdom (1st century BC).
For the earlier Old Testament, there is no dispute: the closest you get is a “shade” in Sheol like Samuel and the Witch of Endor.
Yes just like for millions of Christians the Book of Mormon is Scripture. I don’t see the relevance to my point.
Daniel certainly teaches resurrection and “eternal punishment” in the sense of “permanent punishment”, but there’s nothing about eternal torment in hell. If you want to
Only somewhat more debated; see here (please read the entire section; it covers both the Old and New Testaments).
But the scholarly consensus does not hold that the view found in the Book of Wisdom is normative for the New Testament.
Hi Jonathan,
Yes millions of Christians believe in the Book of Mormon as well, but the Book of Mormon did not exist in the intertestamental period and influence the popular cultural milieu at the time of Jesus. The deuterocanonical books of Wisdom and 2 Maccabees, along with the apocalyptic literature like 1 Enoch (which also teaches belief in an intermediate, disembodied existence in Hades prior to the resurrection and is a text quoted in the NT, in Jude), did influence popular beliefs (i.e. the Book of Hebrews alludes to the Maccabean martyrs).
2 Maccabees explicitly refers to a vision of Jeremiah and the high priest Onias praying, post-mortem in some blessed state, for the righteous on earth - and they were obviously long dead at this time. It likewise is unambiguous about the reward of the righteous via the ultimate resurrection of the body.
The Septuagint was the translation of the Bible used in the Early Church, so the deuterocanon exerted great influence both at the time of Jesus and thereafter, regardless of one’s view as to their canonicity.
Jesus’ audience in the Lukan parable of Lazarus assumed the truth of this intermediate, disembodied state in Hades (described in the Book of Enoch and in 4 Ezra), where the souls of the righteous are with Abraham in a “blessed” quarter and the ungodly dwell in suffering in another quarter.
Luke does not question this belief but assumes it as part of the background for Jesus’ parable about the wealthy neglecting the poor, just like he assumes a background of highway robbers and Samaritans familiar to his audience in the Parable of the Good Samaritan.
The intertestamental texts were popular during the lifetime of Jesus and formed part of the intellectual currents then at play. The Book of Mormon, obviously, isn’t the same.
But you don’t find the immortal soul of those books (even granting the dubious claim of the immortal soul in Maccabees), in the New Testament.
There was no Septuagint as we know it in the first century. That’s why the scholarly nomenclature for this period is “the old Greek”. And where are the unique beliefs of the deuterocanon found in the New Testament? Where are the books even cited? You’ve referred to one citation of part of the books of Enoch (nothing to do with the soul), and that’s it.
You’re assuming a lot here instead of proving it. Where’s this stuff when Paul is teaching about sin, death, judgement and resurrection?
I will get back to you on your points Jonathan, when I finish work and have more time to compose a lengthier, referenced reply. Thanks for engaging with me on this, though!
And for millions of Christians purgatory exists.
What?[quote=“Jonathan_Burke, post:59, topic:36811”]
It might help to know that there’s a broad scholarly consensus that the original writers of the Bible did not believe in an immortal soul, or in God sending people to eternal torment when they die.
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I know the conditionalist position has been around, and it is infinitely less sadistic. I’m not convinced all the NT authors subscribed to it. I don’t think there is a unified position, which again raises serious questions about any inspiration behind the Bible. These are human speculations that shift through time. I think it’s an interesting historical study to see what that region of the world has believed about the afterlife, but I’m not sure why we’d trust any of it is true. It’s a mixed bag. The idea that humans need a savior to save souls from eternal conscious torment is just not present in the OT. This idea is clumsily grafted onto OT. If conditionalism is actually the biblical position, it should be unsettling that eternal conscious torment has been the majority, traditional view through Christian history. This means the majority of Christians through history have believed in a different God, a monstrous God. As evangelical theologian Clark Pinnock who came to a conditionalist view said, “Everlasting torment is intolerable from a moral point of view because it makes God into a bloodthirsty monster who maintains an everlasting Auschwitz for victims whom he does not even allow to die. How is one to worship or imitate such a cruel and merciless God?”
Sorry, that should have been “silly brown people”. Or the Stone Age thing, depending on what kind of atheist you are.
Ok, well submit your paper to peer review and have at it.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep. And much of Christian history is an unfortunate reflection of that God.
Yep. But some people manage, don’t ask me how. Extreme compartmentalism?
Well at least we agree on some things, but for the record I’ve never heard of or used the phrase “silly brown people time.”
Good to hear, welcome to the “Unusual Atheist Club”.
Reading the context, you can see it means punishment as torment, or destruction, meaning not pleasant. Not a judgmental ruling.
Jesus was punished/tormented in that sense for us. But God’s wrath and judgment wasn’t upon Jesus. It(the punishment) was a reality of darkness attempting to over come Him, and was defeated by Jesus once and for all man who believe.
.[quote=“freddymagnanimo, post:57, topic:36811”]
These will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might” (2 Thes 1:9).
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Which agrees with my thoughts. “Separated from the presence of the Lord”. This punishment/torment, is a consequence. It is the reality of rejecting your Creator, who created you to be with Him. We were created to follow His will, with the “freedom” to chose against it.
If an engine should have 5 quarts of SAE 20 oil, the engineer knows how it operates best. You have the freedom to put in 1 quart of proper oil or 5 quarts of honey or water in there…but the consequences will be destruction and torment to the engine. The Engineer never wanted foreign fluids in their, never wanted its specs perverted, it is not mean or cruel to design an engine to operate with specific grade and amounts of oil.
Just as this engineer wasn’t cruel, neither is God. God never wanted us to to avoid our operating specs, but allowed us to. Hell is a reality, just like engine seizure is a reality. Maybe not right away, you might get 5 miles out of an engine with no or wrong oil, maybe 30, but it wasn’t designed/engineered/created that way.
But Jesus is the ultimate “Mechanic” who gives us an engine flush and restores our oil and also ran His own engine at the Engineer’s specs His entire earthly life. And the only reason we even run our own engine anymore, is to glorify the Engineer(the purpose for our running engines in the 1st place),(the work/effort done from it is not needed or used to obtain a reward) but we rely and depend on Jesus perfect engine, that ran perfectly despite ping or knock, or bad fuel, or a dirty filter, and will always run and has always ran. He showed us if w have regular maintenance and operations within the Engineer’s specifications we will be able to run optimally despite other variables we can’t control(in this fallen world), and glorify the Engineer in that display. Analogies are difficult to encompass everything, but the Holy Spirit might be like a NOS, giving us way more power than we can within ourselves.
No doubt in that, we are a very prideful species. It isn’t optimism though, not sure where you got that from. Like God, I wish for no one to suffer here or for an eternity, but that doesn’t make it a reality. I wish for those jumped off buildings wouldn’t die, but they will.
I wanted to go to Hell, I think I deserve it, I don’t deserve to be with my holy Creator as wretched as I am. Thanks be to God He is so loving and merciful and wants no one to go to hell and provided a way out.
But again the roasting part is such small fries. It’s like getting a paper cut compared to the torment experienced from a life without our Creator.
I don’t need ways to make the Bible more sensical for me. I guess my attempt to do that is for the benefit of non-believers. I know God is good, loving, just, merciful, and righteous, I guess this is something He reveals to me as I search for Him.
This just goes as a reminder that the truths in the scriptures are hidden from many, and revealed to all who seek their Creator.
I don’t think anyone will ever find God if one isn’t seeking Him and is just hearing/reading words spoken/written by man. But all who seek their Creator will find God, and see His truths in the Bible or outside of it.
Which shows it matters not of your location or situation, we can all look to the complexity of the heavens and our own species and interactions of love and know God. Or at least take the first steps to know Him.
He isn’t some guy made up through words of man. He created us, His truths are everywhere.
Maybe you mean there is no unified position with regard to our origins, or or final destination. But I think we all have agreed upon the truth of Christ saves all who want to know their Creator, and we are to be image bearers of God in living the 2 greatest commandments.
Amen!
Yeah it’s cool no rush.
I recommend you don’t worship this god. Do not worship any god from what you have heard or read. Rather worship and seek the One who created you and wants you to know Him, and knows and loves you unconditionally!
That may lead God to using words or writings of man to reveal Himself. Or He may chose some miraculous revelation. I don’t know. I do know that if you earnestly seek to know your Creator, He will reveal himself to you.
If you can make this presentation persuasive, you have a winner !
“… EC provides a better way to explain original sin and the fall of humankind, as well as the reason why humans cannot overcome sinfulness on their own.”
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The problem here is you are bound by fairly strong parochial views. All you know is what Augustine told the world … and not much more.
You pretty much dismiss the millions and millions of Orthodox Christians who have led victorious and productive Christian lives without the views that you think are so crucial.
How do you explain that? Why would God let that happen?
You have provided the perfect example. You say:
“Since I view any assent to biological evolution as outright blasphemy against the living God, I can affirm without hesitation or waver that I would take death by fire or wild animals over recanting my position.”
So, in other words, interpreting the 6 literal days of Gensis as figurative language is equivalent to damnation, right?
But where does the Bible say that? The Faith is on Jesus… not on Genesis. Of course, there’s a connection running between the 6 days of Geneis and Jesus… but that’s not the crucial part of the equation, right? It’s an Important Part… but does believing in more than 6 days earn everyone an eternity of damnation?
No. The Bible doesn’t say that. And I’m a little surprised that you have tried to make it sound like it did.
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Well, that is good to know. And I will not make light of your dilemma.
But now that we agree that you were just exaggerating when you said :
“…I can affirm without hesitation or waver that I would take death by fire or wild animals over recanting my position.”
you can see that there is still plenty of room to discuss lots of things, as long as we do not trifle with Christ the Savior.
With respect to the topic, perhaps your description of your beliefs would persuade skeptics of EC to tilt towards the side of EC. I would conclude from your posts that no amount of evidence would ever change your mind, and that type of dogmatism may not be attractive to the EC skeptics we are talking about. On the other side, EC is consistent with evidence, and EC supporters are willing to change their position if the evidence shows evolution to be false.
“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6
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