Just so I don’t misrepresent Craig’s proposal, he still thinks it is critical for Christians to evangelize and spread the gospel.
Then, how do you think one can be saved?
Since I know where @Richard_Wright1 was going with that comment and I completely agree with him, I’ll jump in and say that much of the terminology and theology of “accept Jesus into your heart” is the product of American evangelists in the 19th (and 20th) centuries. “Accepting” Jesus has little to do with the New Testament concept of repentance, which is a change of direction in one’s life, or of discipleship, which involves a student learning from and becoming like his master.
Too many people, particularly Christians, think that “faith” is merely a set of beliefs you carry around in your head. Nothing could be further from the truth …
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Having spent many years in churches where “accepting Jesus” was the normal altar call I can say that it is not the totality of what it means to become a Christian. There is also acknowledgment of your sin, knowing the consequences of sin, believing in or accepting Jesus’s death as the payment for those sins, public confession of your belief, and showing the results of your conversion in your actions. What follows is a new direction in your life and undertaking the process of learning to walk as Jesus walked, or discipleship. This is not to say that there are not people who think that joining a church or living a moral life will get them to heaven. As a pastor used to say, “Standing in a garage doesn’t make you a car.”
I think that’s a great point that that kind of language is new. But I just wonder if the theology went astray even long before that. I’m curious how much you think beliefs factor in, if at all.
I personally don’t see a consistent theology in the NT. I see two main strands — probably one closer to what Jesus actually taught and one based on subsequent interpretations of the meaning of his death.
In my opinion, what you’re describing is probably closer to what Jesus actually taught. But are you not describing a works based system of salvation — one that makes a person’s beliefs somewhat irrelevant?
I have to say that I don’t agree with the gist of this post, Jay. Yes, Christianity is a lifestyle, not an intellectual belief - I’m 100% with you there. However, we can only have the right lifestyle if we have the right beliefs, meaning doctrine. Doctrine is not a dirty word in the NT, here is Paul’s admonition to Timothy in 1 Timothy 4:16:
"Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers."
So life and doctrine go hand and hand. And Satan has been attacking the church since the days of the apostles, and Paul makes clear that true believers will be led astray in the first 3 verses of the above chapter:
"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth."
The devil’s goal is to bring people to hell with him. So we have to be careful, as individuals and churches.
What do I believe a Christian is? I would describe a Christian as, a bit redundantly, a, “baptized, born-again follower of Christ living faithfully”. For me, that entails understanding that we’re sinners, and that our sins, not the world’s sins but our own sins put Jesus on the cross. As importantly, we need to understand that the response to Jesus’ gift to us is to repent of all sin and start to live as one of his followers. And that may take some time. IMO, and this may sound distasteful to some, and I don’t say it with any relish, most people who call themselves, “Christians” aren’t biblically and I would say the same for many churches.
If anyone would like to discuss this in more detail I’d be glad to take it to a PM.
First I feel you paradigm with heaven/hell is incorrect, or doesn’t align with mine and I can’t explain my thoughts from a different paradigm.
I see heaven as being with God eternally, and hell as eternal separation from God. Not a punishment, but a reality. To keep it short, I can expand on that if you wish.
But from that paradigm, leading a “moral” or “religious” life with the goal of personal perfection will lead to hell absolutely. If you don’t want to know God who created you, or His ways or accept Him as your ultimate King of Kings, then, you get what you want, Hell.
I do believe this. But I also believe Jesus is an embodiment of God. So prior to Jesus, outside the law, you could still want to know God, your creator.
Rom 1:19-20
since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
And John 1:1-2
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.
Or Col 1:16
For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
Since Jesus was around before us/always has been, you could have had faith in Him prior to Him coming to earth. Which faith in Jesus, was faith in God.
John 8:19
“You do not know me or my Father,” Jesus replied. “If you knew me, you would know my Father also.”
Josh 2:11
for the Lord your God is God in heaven above and on the earth below.
Rehab knew her Creator, though not under the law. I believe her faith in God saved her.
But after Jesus came, we now have Him. So we can directly have faith in Jesus, that justifies us to be with God, just as they had faith in Jesus before He came to earth.
But now that He came to earth, no on can come to the Father, but through Him.
What verse says this? Google D’Souza or Hutchinson who ar famous Christian scientist who neither were born in “Christian” nations.
Again it sounds like you are coming from a paradigm that I don’t think is biblically supported, that heaven is a reward for Christians and hell is a punishment for the rest.
There was a thief on the cross, who Jesus said, “him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.””. He didn’t die yet, nor rise, so that guy couldn’t have technically been a Christian.
He realized that God created us to be image bearers of God, kings and priest, ruling the land with His goodness, and praising Him in dong that. Any sin takes (rather we give sin that power) away what makes us human (no longer perfect image bearers). But if we have faith that Gods will is perfect and know it in our hearts, we will be with Him in heaven. That doesn’t mean we will chose His will at all times, like person screwing up on a diet. They still want in their heart to lose weight though they fail at times. God knows our true hearts desire, we can’t fool Him.
So now that Jesus came and atoned for our sins, living a perfect life that we didn’t, faith in Him now becomes our high priest to mediate between a holy God and us sinful man.
I don’t subscribe to that at all, nor Calvinism or predestination. I don’t believe God knows the future details either, or could do this., or does it seem to fit His biblical character.
The only requirement is to want to be with God in your heart. That’s it. I believe if you earnestly want to know you Creator and love Him and acknowledge His will, love, righteousness, and justice is perfect, He will provide you with the details. Perhaps supernaturally, or special revelation, or through a person sharing the truth if Hesus with you. I do believe Jesus is the only way, it not necessarily the first step.
True, and the fruit you bear shows your heart…but I think this can be slightly misleading to say that we earn our way into heaven. Like James speaks of about faith without works is dead.
Bu Jesus is our high Priest who mediates and atones our sin before God.
I think this was intended at this who claimed to attain heaven strictly by their Jewish heritage which made them chosen. But they followed rules, they never knew God, that is why they didn’t recognize Jesus.
I think it is important to emphasize change in direction, it location. Like deciding to go on a diet on day 1 or 10, you will probably be less successful at it than a person on day 365. Very few things happen instantly. And if you believe in evolution or even humans growing physically, you can see God uses slow processes to attain great change.
Though the second you do “accept” Jesus, He will now mediate for you and had atoned for you, and you will go to heaven to be with the God who’s will you wanted done on earth. But the sanctification is a journey of improvement to become perfect. But not to attain a stays or reward, but to give God the glory and bear Hus image to others.
That being said, if years go by and there has been no location change or diet change or weight loss. You have to wonder if you really meant it, or it was emotional fluff. This is where faith without works is dead.
Though it is possible you went on a diet with great intentions and still failed due to a bad instructions. Paul admonished many with good hearts who wanted God’s will, but were mislead.
We assume no fruits means a bad heart. But we are not to judge, only God knows mans hearts.
Col 1:28
He is the one we proclaim, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone fully mature in Christ.
Those we need to teach the scriptures as iron sharpens iron so they can glorify the Father as they wish to do.
If my post was too long, this sums it up well. Amen.
Probably mostly semantics, it I think an important distinction should be made. I think Satan wants us to do our own will and/or reject God’s will. This is how he tempted Eve and even how he was thrown from heaven. Which will be granted us in an eternity separated from God and His perfect will.
I apologize for putting words in your mouth!
Yes, and I spent many years working in adult and juvenile prisons, watching the revivals come and go, and the kids deciding whether to go to “chicken church” or “cookie church” on Sundays, and observing the results. Essentially, what they hear is that if you believe in Jesus and pray for forgiveness, your ticket to heaven is punched, no matter what you do or how you live. Add this together with the “once saved, always saved” theology that these same evangelists preach, and it’s not even necessary to believe anymore, if it becomes inconvenient later in life. This kind of “religion” won’t save anyone, in my humble opinion.
In a nutshell, I’m only emphasizing what the Reformers emphasized: “It is faith alone that saves, but the faith that saves is never alone.”
No, doctrine is not a dirty word. But I have lived too long and seen too much to agree with your first statement. All of us can name prominent leaders in the church who had all the right doctrines and all the right beliefs, yet had not love. Men who sexually, physically, and/or emotionally abused women and children. Men who loved power, prestige, and money more than they loved God. And this is to say nothing of the average man and woman in the pews who follow their example. I’ve seen the wreckage they cause. I personally got to know their children while they were incarcerated. Right beliefs guarantee nothing except greater punishment for such as these. And, I’ve seen the opposite, too. People who can barely read, who seem to pull their doctrine from a grab bag, yet have a love for Christ and for other people that puts me to shame. Bad doctrine doesn’t always equal bad lifestyle. But I’m sure you already know these things, too. Nothing new under the sun …
Final thought: Doctrine does not save. Not that I’m against it, but I cannot love a doctrine. I can follow a rule, but I can’t love it. Thus, the necessity for Christ …
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I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to ignore your question. What I’m describing isn’t salvation by works. I’m simply recognizing the fact that God meets us where we are, and asks no more of us now than he did in the time of the prophet Micah:
With what shall I come before the Lord
and bow down before the exalted God?
Shall I come before him with burnt offerings,
with calves a year old?
Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams,
with ten thousand rivers of olive oil?
Shall I offer my firstborn for my transgression,
the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the Lord require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God.
I agree with you that this is likely what Jesus taught. But let me make sure I understand your position…salvation is predicated on how one lives, not on which religion one follows.
Soft-pedaling hell as just separation from God has become fairly popular. But this gives the impression that it’s not so bad. The heathen just carries on without God as he always has. But by all accounts, hell is utter misery…for eternity. Also, if you are claiming that hell is not punishment, I’m not sure where you get that.
Help! Help! I’m being dragged into doctrine against my will!
For the record, I don’t think the apostles got Jesus wrong. As to whether some of his followers centuries later placed too much emphasis on this or that, that’s another question …
To answer straightforwardly, I believe that we are judged by our words and deeds, and we are saved only through Christ, because we are saved by personal knowledge of him through the indwelling Spirit of God, not abstract knowledge of who he is. If it were possible to attain to a knowledge of God by intellect alone, then God would be the God of the greatest among us, not the least. But since he is known in humility and service, he is within reach of all of us, especially those whom society regards as the bottom of the barrel. It is the proud who know God only from afar:
The fear of the LORD is to hate evil;
Pride and arrogance and the evil way
And the perverted mouth, I hate.
Now, I’ll start waffling. If you’re asking about salvation for those who “never heard,” then my answer is that I don’t know. Many people see the possibility of salvation for those outside the covenant in Romans 1-2, where Paul discusses the conscience sometimes accusing, sometimes excusing one’s actions. Some Christians believe in universal salvation after a time of punishment in “hell,” however one conceptualizes it. I personally don’t think either of those positions is correct, but there is enough ambiguity in the Scriptures that I couldn’t rule out either possibility.
Far be it from me to tell the Lord how to judge the world!
Edit to avoid another post and have the system rebuke me:
Sorry, one more thought. You said, “Soft-pedaling hell as just separation from God has become fairly popular.” In truth, separation from God is separation from life and love and all that is good. Ultimately, separation from God is death, which is the point of the story of Eden. Man, barred from God’s presence, is already dead, since he is “flesh,” not spirit. Eternal life is only possible in union with the source of life, which is God. Since separation from God equals death, that is one reason why many believe in annihilation rather than eternal punishment.
lol. Sorry. [quote=“Jay313, post:51, topic:36811”]
To answer straightforwardly, I believe that we are judged by our words and deeds, and we are saved only through Christ, because we are saved by personal knowledge of him through the indwelling Spirit of God
[/quote]
So acting kindly and justly is not enough to be saved? Must one believe the right things about Jesus (e.g. he died for my sins)? If so, we’re right back where we started.
I understand what you’re saying about an annihilationist view of separation, but much more commonly I hear the “separation” language used for eternal conscious torment, which I think is a disingenuous way of papering over the horrors of the doctrine.
I believe people are judged by the light they are given. Those who have been granted a great deal of light and still prefer darkness are judged harshly. Those who were born in darkness and sought the light, however dimly they may have seen it or vaguely they understood it, are judged more leniently. Exactly where God draws the line for any particular individual, I cannot say.
I did have a thought the other day that maybe God’s final judgment is not quite the binary heaven/hell decision that we picture. Perhaps it is a continuum? This would explain degrees of "reward’ and “punishment.” Or, perhaps the entire “race” (to use Paul’s metaphor) ends in a tie? This would be an alternate explanation of how the first are last, and the last first. Since God has made a habit of fulfilling his word in surprising ways, I suspect that we will all be somewhat surprised in the consummation. I’m just hoping it’s a good surprise, speaking for myself!
I honestly don’t understand. When you say the “light they are given,” what does that mean? And those who “sought the light” — what does that mean?
If the light is the gospel, then maybe you are saying, for example, someone in Japan who is completely aware of Christianity, but not exposed to a lot of Christians who are sharing the gospel (the light), might still be allowed into heaven even if she doesn’t believe/accept the gospel.
I think that is something that is in God’s hands, but is hinted at in Romans 1:20
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
Since they are without excuse, one would think that they also may chose a path that leads to God as well as a path that does not.
That isn’t soft-pedaling anything. Separation from God, I firmly believe will be a horrendous consequence ( worst thing imaginable). For the people that think they don’t want or need His will, don’t realize He is still very present here on this earth through His many believers. Every good thing is from Him. Without Him, there will be such great fear and sadness. This will cause weeping and gnashing of teeth like cornered, scared rat.
I don’t think the threat of physical pain is going to deter any prideful person. It isn’t soft pedaling it to them. Just like the threat of prison isn’t going to deter a criminal. It will just make them craftier so as not to get caught.
But pain is a good thing, a blessing in disguise. It lets us know our physical detriment if we don’t stop what is causing the pain. But if you have a physical eternal body, pain is pointless, and will become like breathing eventually as we adapt to it. So I don’t think the bad part of hell will be the fire.
I also have thoughts that fire will be used as a purifying agent as Isaiah had a hit coal to purify him. With the caveat of eternal fire is required to purify our sins, meaning it can never happen apart from God.
All the suffering in this life is a consequence of our rejection of God’s will, not a punishment from. I think hell is a reality, or a consequence of choosing a life void of God, not a punishment.
The wages of sin is death (separation from God). Faith in Jesus is life (living water). The wages of sin isn’t punishment and pain and suffering. Though pain and suffering is a result or consequence of a life void of God.
Conditionalist believes similar. And if you die a second death, you are still eternally sperarated from God, so it is still an eternal punishment/consequence.
I didn’t want to quote your entire post, but I agree and like it and the way you think/explain it.
Correct me if I’m wrong @Jay313. But think what I understand ( and agree) with what you are saying is doing the good deeds of God are steps that God will use to lead you to Him to be saved.
But no, good deeds and kindness along cannot save, as you will fail. Jesus is the only one to succeed at living a perfect life. But even Jesus needed the help of the Holy Spirit. If you need the Holy Spirit to help you, you are basically acknowledging God’s will and Jesus. Which again this earnest seeking if God’s will, will have Bim reveal Himself to you and the truth of who Jesus was/is and what He did for you on this earth.
But a good deed and kindness to earn your way to Heaven is impossible. The good deeds are worthless apart from God. Heaven is a place where His will is done, if you don’t want that now, why in the next life?
Good deeds are not bad, they come from God, but we must recognize that fact and give Him the glory. Good deeds glorify the Father and are from Him and are His will. But once you take God out of the equation, the deeds are worthless, like filthy rags. They earn you no special status or reward.
Even Jesus’ good deeds were worthless apart from God, but they came from God, and Jesus acknowledged this. But Jesus was perfect morally. Us, who are not perfect and have sinned, why do we think good deeds (without acknowledging God)would be worth anything?
Interesting perspective. I couldn’t rule that out entirely.
But regardless of this continuum theory or annihilism or evolution or whatever may or may not be true. We can know that God is loving, perfect, just, merciful, and righteous. And these above theories shouldn’t change the way we live or act.
Once we see the light of God, we are to do all things for His glory and to follow the 2 greatest commandments. Not for a reward later, we have been rewarded already! We can have a personal relationship with our Creator through Jesus! It is just a struggle in the flesh, and will be nice when there is no more evil in heaven, it the greatest part will be that we will once again and permanently be restored as the image bearers of God we were created to be. We will again have a vocation and a purpose and as Rev 5:9 says, be kings and priests, ruling the new earth with God’s love and praising Him in all we do for everything He has done!
But our purpose here is not to get to heaven, it is to know God here and now, and in heaven the glorified bodies is a cherry on top. We will do the same things in heaven as we want or try to do here and frequently fail when we ignore the Holy Spirit.
I’m surprised you don’t think being kept alive for eternity in utter misery is a punishment. The Bible refers to hell as a “blazing furnace” and a fiery lake of burning sulfur.” You can call it a “consequence” if you prefer, but the Bible seems ok with calling it punishment:
“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life” (Matt 25:46).
“These will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might” (2 Thes 1:9).
Furthermore, if I were a Bible believer I wouldn’t be too optimistic about the fate of people from other religions: “For the gate is narrow and the road is hard that leads to life, and there are few who find it” (Matt 7:14). Apparently the majority of human beings will roast in hell.
At this point, all I can say is that you and I think very differently. For the life of me, I couldn’t imagine believing that a loving and just God punishes his little creatures for all eternity. And maybe more importantly, I’m not sure why I should trust what the Bible says on such topics. The Bible appears to me as an utterly human book — one with mismatched theology, a God who enjoys the smell of burnt offerings, a God who indiscriminately punishes men, women, and children with plagues, famine, and slaughter, condones slavery, and much more. To read this book and believe that it contains information that is otherwise unknowable to human beings about salvation, makes no sense to me. Perhaps I’m just not one of the elect.
I appreciate that many here are attempting to find a way to make traditional theology and biblical interpretations more tolerable and sensical, and perhaps I would be doing the same if I were already a Christian. But from the outside I can only be honest and say that the whole enterprise appears manmade. Perhaps I will be thrown in the blazing furnace for rejecting it, but I don’t have any reason to believe that’s true.
Hi Freddie,
Please don’t focus, for now, on who will end up in hell. Try to establish a real, living relationship with your creator, that should be your first and most important priority. Satan uses the famous, “who deserves to go to hell and why” question as a distraction for those considering becoming a Christian. Don’t let him trick you! None of us have all the answers and in the end we simply trust that God as a fair God, and will judge people fairly. God is much beyond fair since he sent his Son down here to be tortured and murdered for us to have a chance at being saved. I’m praying for you!
The scriptures make clear that hell is certainly real, though I have recently changed my mind about hell, after many years of being a Christian, and now believe that punishment in hell is not eternal for anyone other than Satan and his servants. I can send you a link to the reasonably long articles that convinced me of that.
Don’t give up!
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It might help to know that there’s a broad scholarly consensus that the original writers of the Bible did not believe in an immortal soul, or in God sending people to eternal torment when they die. This understanding is not a matter of recent revisionism to suit modern sensibilities, there’s an explicit witness to this in pre-Christian and Christian era Jewish commentary, and also a witness to it in early and later medieval Christian commentary. These commentators were certainly not reinterpreting the Bible for apologetic reasons, that’s what they actually believed. And this was back in what you would no doubt think of as “silly brown people days” (or perhaps, as atheists commonly refer to any period when the Bible was written. “the Stone Age”).
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Well, it depends what Bible you have.
For Catholics and Orthodox Christians, the Book of Wisdom is part of the Bible and it clearly teaches belief in the immortality of the soul.
Also, there is Jesus’ parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus to consider.