Is the evolution vs creationism debate still alive and well?

Faith & Science Conversation
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My first reaction is to say that while it may be alive it has never been “well”.

That’s easy: not wasting time in pseudo-science that denies the Bible is ancient literature falls into the category of not throwing stumbling blocks into people’s paths.

I do occasionally. As a university student I saw it happen almost daily, though usually only after the damage had been done. Most recently I saw it with a friend as we sat sipping beer and discussing the geology of the swimming hole we were at – at one point I asked him, “How long do you think it took to wear away this channel in lava rock?!”

He blinked, looked at the rock, finished his can of beer, and said, “■■■■. So the world isn’t just six thousand years old.”

I said something like, “No, it isn’t, and we wouldn’t have wanted to be here when it was”.

And we jumped into the river.

I think it happens where experience and new knowledge are being acquired – that’s why it’s so common at universities.

And nine out of ten will see that it wasn’t meant as history.

That’s not made up, BTW; when I was at university Campus Crusade did a survey in the campus quad asking people who’d never read Genesis before what they thought after reading it for the first time.

Not all are called to be evangelists:

He gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,

and it isn’t all done with words, in fact (continuing from above):

to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up

The early church grew far more from “works of service” than from preaching in words.

Let me correct that:

So YEC’s preach that the Bible is history because they think it supports the authenticity of the gospel, not realizing that they are off-topic an driving people away.

But YEC drives people away from Christ because they see that obviously YECists are picking and choosing which bits of science (and reality) to believe. It doesn’t take long for someone who thinks about it to recognize that if YEC is true then God is a deceiver.

That people ask that question does not mean that the YEC mangling of the scriptures is correct.

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44

Much appreciated.

The last sentence got me thinking. SDA is very upfront about YEC, so I think it is a case of knowing ahead of time what kind of church you are joining. At the same time, those who have grown up in the SDA church may not want to leave SDA because of friends, family, and tradition. That may be one reason that YEC is questioned by some in the SDA church. Looking at this more generally, it probably isn’t too different from other denominations that may be seeing movements from within the church to redefine their theology. Don’t know . . . just thinking out loud.

This definitely would not have happened in the non-denominational protestant church I grew up in. I can count on one hand the number of times YEC came up in my 20-ish years in that church, and even then it was usually a film of some kind (I think one of them had Duane Gish, if memory serves). In my eyes, SDA is much farther on the YEC side of the theology spectrum than your average Christian church.

I will also add that I have always had a positive view of SDA. My dad was part of a gospel trio that toured local congregations, and that included several SDA churches which they were more than happy to go to. The only negative I experienced was a classmate in high school that had to leave the basketball team because of Fri/Sat games and practices. I felt bad for him, he was a really nice guy.

Anyway, thanks again for chiming in and answering my questions.

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45

No, they don’t, and they say so right up front: their claim is that without ever asking whether the Bible intends to teach science, they claim it does, and further that they can understand it without ever having gone to the bother of actually learning about it and that they will not budge from their interpretation that they then declare that they are going to force science to fit regardless of the actual data.

No, they reject the truth that God is faithful and not a deceiver. Uniformitarianism is what a Christian should expect because God doesn’t play games by changing the rules.

Ooh, goody – more science fiction.

Nicely put!

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46

Well said. I remember thinking that very thing when I started reading a book that argued that evolution is a religion, and the author started out by saying how logical he was and avoided fallacies – my thought was, the very book was based on the fallacy of false dichotomy.

So that’s the ignorant fool who started all this!

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Actually, The Fundamentals doesn’t completely support the YEC position. Here is one example, emphasis mine

By the early narratives of Genesis are to be understood the first eleven chapters of the book, those which precede the times of Abraham. These chapters present peculiarities of their own, and I confine attention to them, although the critical treatment applied to them is not confined to these chapters, but extends throughout the whole Book of Genesis, the Book of Exodus, and the later history with much the same result in reducing them to legend.

and then there is this on evolution

The world was not made in an instant, or even in one day (whatever period day may signify) but in six days. Throughout the whole process there was an orderly progress from lower to higher forms of matter and life. In short there is an established order in all the Creator's work.

As originally defined in The Fundamentals the current form of “fundamental” belief is greatly different.

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48

Hi Christopher, interesting topic.
The way I see it, there is no debate.

A debate about a subject requires opposing arguments. This arguments require a proof of sort. Belief is not proof.
Not that long ago men believed the earth was the center of the universe and that the sun goes up in the east and down in the west. That is what the scriptures tell us … sort of.
It became doctrine and people were executed for stating something else.

Today, and for a long time now, geocentrism is easily disproved, so the explanation given, is that scriptures take a poetic license.

Was geocentrism used as an argument to “prove” God does not exist, or that evolution is right? It certainly is an argument today but was it the argument used by Copernicus? Geocentrism is wrong Heliocentrism is right therefore the scriptures are wrong?
Not really.

In fact ti was the church taking a doctrinal position on an issue they knew nothing about, that created the antagonic position.
A similar useless “debate” could be to challenge the use of the heart as the center of our feelings to prove or disprove authority.

As far as the earth as the centre or geocentrism, is it wrong? It is if you go as far as the visible planetary system, sure. Yet that is not the extent of creation and there is much more than the solar system. So is the sun still the centre? Not really.

So the earth IS the centre, and the sun DOES get up in the east and down in the west from our individual human personal point of view.
But the earth turns and … etc, you may be tempted to say. Sure, but not from my point of view. Not in my world.
How far do we take our personal point of view and how creative are we in imposing it onto others?
It all depends on how influential we are.
In the fifties Dr Ancel Keys became famous for denouncing saturated fats as the culprit for an epidemic of heart disease. The 7DA church jumped in the fry feet first, seeing their opportunity to promote vegetarianism as God given diet.
Unfortunately Dr Keys was not only wrong, but was acting to protect the real culprit, the tobacco industry. Today we know that the “plant based” fad and the food pyramid political fabrication, are directly responsible together with the sale of lubricants as edible oils, for the epidemic of obesity, diabetes, and all the rest of the so called western illness we are plagued with.

What I see every time the church takes sides in topics they ignore, in the mistaken belief they need to “defend God” or truth, they seem to put their foot in their mouth.
It is a sad spectacle and does not help the Christian cause.

Something we as Christians have to learn is to say “I don’t know”. It is rather simple. and does not deny what we believe.
I believe in creation, yes. I DON’T KNOW a whole lot of other things, nor why or how.
And I sleep very well with the thought I don’t have to prove or disprove. God does not need me to defend Him. :blush:

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welcome to the forum Marc. Good points. Humility is a virtue in science as well as in scripture.

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I have to ask, since you’re here and discussing it: what is your stance on evolution? And how does it affect your working there (if at all)?

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It is the town I grew up in and I now work here as a teacher. For me it was a job to pick up extra income in during the summer nothing more. As far as my stance on evolution is concerned I tend be more towards the biologos camp then them. But I keep my mouth shut on that. I have had my own personal journey on these questions.

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It is good we can have a forum to explore our questions on those sometimes lonely journeys.

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It is pretty evident that creationism is very much alive and well, from AiG’s extensive corporate holdings to no name web sites. As far as debate goes, there is little attempt on the part of creationists to engage, especially with a scientifically literate audience, and most especially with a scientifically literate christian audience. For all the YEC persecution complex and complaint about exclusion from academia, they are quick to shake the dust off their feet when competently challenged by working scientists. On this forum, aspiring to gracious dialog, there appears the occasional YEC of the month, and there are a few stalwart followers who hold the line, but how many recognized leaders?

Instead of debate, there is preaching to a receptive choir. YEC website comment sections are carefully curated and full of adulation. Their conventions and seminars are stage managed, and their question and answer sessions are too brief to develop any objection. YEC is about rhetoric and the pulpit, not science and the podium.

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I posted a comment once based on the Hebrew text. In short order I was “corrected” on the basis of the KJV, and within an hour my post was taken down.

That’s a nice way of putting it!

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I really feel like climate change is the most pressing science/faith issue for the church at the moment. BioLogos recently got Katharine Hayhoe to be the “senior advisor for hope and climate” so I think we can expect more resources and focus on that to come.

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That’s one that has impacted my conservation work. There are plants whose range is listed in botany manuals as reaching as far north as Crescent City, California or Gold Beach, Oregon, that are showing up two hundred and more miles north. Also the bluff where I did a hefty trail project has eroded landward steadily due to sea level rise. On top of those the weather has been changing fairly close to how a climate model when I was in university predicted, especially the cooler, drier summers.

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I think you make a good point, Christy. Climate change has major impact on human life. The evolution debate not so much. In my forthcoming book, I devote a chapter to why it’s time for Christians to move on from arguing about a scientific fact that has no bearing at all on our theological perspective. So many of those arguing most passionately that evolution is anti-biblical or anti-Christian, really have no understanding of what evolutionary theory actually says, and doesn’t say. So, yes, let’s move on to issues and concerns that actually affect our lives and future generations, and stop indulging in senseless and divisive culture wars about nothing.

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In the current climate, im not sure if YEC is as big an issue for church members as it might seem. There are so many tide turning things on the table these days…ordination of women, lgbt, drugs, domestic violence, discrimination, sexism, covid and vaccination… the list is growing quite quickly.

When my parents first joined the church it was on the heals of the Des Ford “heavenly sanctuary” doctrinal debate. This caused a major upheaval in the ranks and took years to subside.

I think mostly, the YEC debate is really an AIG/Creation Ministries thing…our church doesnt seem to dedicate too much focus on it from the pulpit. Of course it is brought up, however that is not really the principle calling of the church…its preaching the gospel and helping those in need. I find that when i bring up YEC stuff, individuals generally believe it, however, its not really a huge talking point (but it probably depends on which circles one is engaging within.) It is inescapable to not indirectly bring it up when talking about the seventh day sabbath, however, i imagine there would be those here who could comfortably believe 7th day sabbath and be TEist (i would clearly struggle but thats just me)

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Depends on the nature of the arguments being made.

If the arguments against evolution or for a young earth show a total disregard for even the most elementary basics of science—as is all too often the case—it can have a knock on effect that can undermine people’s ability to understand and apply those elementary basics elsewhere, and this can disrupt their ability to do their jobs properly or even to keep their families safe. In addition, conspiracy-minded arguments feed people’s willingness to accept other conspiracy theories as well.

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Been gone from here for some years but now retired. Glad to be back!

Very nice! I agree. As a “convert” to Walton, so to speak, I keep a low profile living deep in the heart of PA mennonite country. I was raised in it, and achieved an MDiv at Haggard School of Theology that was surprisingly open.
But I really struggle with my dear friends who almost worship AIG and make pilgrammage to The Ark Experience. A travesty of religious hubris in my opinion.

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61

Thanks for the insight. Much appreciated.

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Thanks for these insights.