Hi all: first time post (I think), but longtime admirer of the mission here. To be brief, the Language of God was an important book for me during the formative years of my adolescence, and helped me to find a way to reconcile a life of faith and a incipient education, and ultimately career, in science. When the book came out, Collins discussed theism vs atheism with Dawkins, court cases were still fresh in the public’s awareness, books were coming out left and right and even South Park weighed in on the issue.
Since many of you actively engage in the discussion of evolution education and its relationship with Christianity, may I ask your honest opinion: Is the evolution vs creationism debate still alive and well? I don’t mean are they on equal footing; I mean is this still an issue that preoccupies churches and individual Christians to a large or even moderate extent?
I ask because it was something very important and meaningful for me when I was younger. Accordingly, for a time I did some outreach regarding evolution education outside of my normal work duties. Some career changes and COVID caused me to fall away from this world for some years, but I have some interest in picking up the mantle once more. However, I don’t have a good sense of whether evolution has sort of fallen off the map for other hot topics at the intersection of science and faith, and/or it’s been more or less integrated into the worldviews of most of the non-fundamentalist Christians.
As is probably true with nearly any issue, it’s only in certain contexts and with certain groups that it could probably be considered “a live issue”. And it depends also on what you mean by that. Like so many other issues, I suspect that most congregations (here in the U.S.) have already sorted themselves out so that one is either in a congregation that no longer wrestles with it because nobody has a problem accepting evolutionary science as it is and see in it no conflict with their faith; or alternatively other congregations have become acclimated to writing off evolution as a tool of the enemy, and most there just accept Creation Science as part of the background hum of orthodoxy. While these latter sorts are more likely to host the occasional workshop specially on this topic (of rehearsing the evils of evolution and the bible passages they see in conflict with it); I’m not sure that it could be said to be a “live issue” for either sort. As in both sorts already have it settled out in their minds and there is little or no real “wrestling” with the issue.
All that to say that while it may be less common now to find people or congregations who haven’t already ensconsed themselves comfortably on one side or the other, the fact that so many still exist in each side of these opposing camps means that any (people like myself) who find themselves living not just in one of these camps, but also on an interfacing edge where it bumps up against the opposing camp, - we find ourselves obliged to be able to navigate and fellowship among those with whom we disagree. And it’s a live question for us then: how to handle that disagreement. How many people does this describe? I don’t know. But for us, I suppose it would be considered a live issue - not because we haven’t already picked our side, but because we need to stay fluent and productively persuasive in the subject knowing that for many, this quickly becomes a stumbling block for them if and when they encounter those relationship boundaries for themselves.
Christ asked his followers to preach the gospel. How do you figure evolution fits into that ministry exactly given it narrates exactly zero about salvation?
To me, such questions are focusing on things other than Christ and simply are not that important.
Christ said in Luke 9
New Living Translation
But Jesus told him, “Let the spiritually dead bury their own dead! Your duty is to go and preach about the Kingdom of God.”
Ill entertain the question as this is a science filled forum…although the question misses the point i think. Its not an evolution vs creation calling Christ made to his followers. Ill pursue that issue…
We cannot scientifically produce a lab result that explains miracles, so why attempt to use that to prove God or salvation? (Especially when atheists in the majority, are using that same science to try to show there is no God or any need for Him)
Do you have scientific proof Christ is God and saves sinners?
Wouldnt it be a good idea to attempt to preach the gospel to the atheist? The atheist already knows the evolutionary belief.
You’re right … That was an unnecessary dig right there at the end, and as a result of your critique here, I removed that bit, and made the point without the dig (hopefully.). Thanks for your observations.
The gospel can be preached with no mention of evolution or creation so it doesn’t matter that they can be left out.
A question science is incapable of answering one way or the other. It is like asking for scientific proof leprechauns exist and can gift you with a pot of gold.
It would be better to live a life that shows the gospel. “Preaching” to an atheist probably isn’t the best method to use.
Hi Kendel: I’m in the US, west coast. I don’t live in a conservative bastion, nor a particularly liberal one.
And by “debate”, I don’t necessarily mean active engagement with the issue (though I’m curious about this too), but at least is it something that pastors are talking to their flocks about to some degree, is there a general assumption that the “evolutionists” are trying to corrupt them and erode the basis of faith, etc.
Basically, how has the issue changed since 2006? Are there still lots of people that come on here and profess that they struggle with science and whether they can still believe? Do any of you know people who go to college and discover that evolution is a thing and they question the basis of their faith? Do you know people who argue with you and say evolution is clearly false and scientists are deceived or deceivers?
So if most people are sorted into camps, whether active or passively by association, I guess one important question is whether you often see Christians encounter evolution and either reject it outright or become curious about it but wonder if it shakes the foundations of their faith. In other words, do you find people where this is something that challenges them and results in spiritual crises at all?
Your point is taken, Adam. However, I look at it as ministry for those who find that evolution as threatening to faith to learn that one can harmonize science and Christianity. There are certainly people who cannot accept Christianity intellectually given that they’ve been taught that science is in outright conflict with it. I assume it’s not common but it’s something that has existed and I’m sure will continue to exist for some time. But that’s what I’m trying to get a sense for in the post; is this an issue many Christians still wrestle with or is it something that has become a non-issue for the average Christian.
I have a friend who’s 20 yo daughter now considers herself an agnostic with the primary reason given being the churches attitude towards science, I would guess that includes not only age of earth and evolution, but creation care and such as well. Home schooled, no college, so can’t blame that. Several of my kids contemporaries left the church for similar reasons, but that was 20 years back, so not recent. Anyway, still an issue for kids raised in an environment not open to different interpretations.
Indubitably, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has a better chance of being resolved–through through Palestinian attrition–and “World Peace” being achieved than the Creationism vs. Evolution Debate has a possibility of ending.
Requiring YEC as part of Christian theology would probably be a deal breaker for most atheists. Atheists won’t trust scriptures that are wrong about reality. If the Bible is wrong about stuff we can check, such as life’s history and Earth’s history, then why should it be trusted on stuff we can’t check, such as the resurrection. It would be similar to telling atheists (or anyone really) that they have to believe in a flat Earth in order to be a Christian.
If YEC does come up, I think it would be prudent to say that an old Earth and evolution are accepted as part of the larger Christian church, although there is still debate around the question.
I think it would be accurate to say the situation is evolving.
I’ve never been a part of a church where it was a “pulpit level issue”. However there was always a strong current among segments of the congregations. Our former church does an outreach at the local high school and uses AIG stuff - building further barriers faith. Years ago they had some AIG person speak one evening, then put a lot of their materials in the church library. But I would call it an undercurrent, not a debate.
I think the matter is largely settled for most american christians. And many have built their family lives around their conviction. I think we see a good deal of the interest in home schooling, “classical” education, private schools, because YEC parents can easily control and direct their children’s access to information.
Perhaps we could say that it has evolved from debate to culture, or a facet if culture.
But no doubt ended up encountering science in the workplace?
Once again, this is something that I keep having to drive home to science deniers. Science plays such a fundamental role in modern society that even if you are home schooled and don’t go to university, the chances are high that sooner or later you will end up having to learn about how science really works in order to do your job. You may even end up having to learn how evolution really works in order to do your job. You will end up with colleagues who have been to university, who have studied evolution or geology properly, and they will ask you tough questions and expect straight answers. If you have been taught any form of scientific misinformation or bad attitudes to any aspect of science, evolution included, it can seriously limit your career opportunities or undermine your ability to function properly in the workplace, and when you realise what’s been happening it can leave you with a loss of trust in those who have taught you those things.
@jammycakes for us not focused on the sciences in our inclinations or professions, it’s actually easy to avoid real contact with sciences. I have been involved with two careers as an adult: formerly a high school teacher of German and English, and currently as a librarian. In college jobs and in those two professions I have worked with people in a wide variety of jobs: retail workers, cleaning staff, mechanics, janitors, classroom assistants, library assistents, cooks, a variety of elementary to university educators (humanities, education mostly), historians, all sorts of middle managers, bus drivers, cooks, parents (by vocation), school counselors, other librarians and different types of institutions. I am married to an economist. My mom was a school cook, and Dad was a county sherriff’s deputy. That is only a sample.
A right understanding of evolution or firm grasp of how science works simply aren’t part of those jobs.
Sure, I don’t expect every job to require an in depth knowledge of the sciences, and I recognise that it is very easy to avoid those that do. But what concerns me here is the elementary basics—principles that apply to every area of the sciences and that get taught in secondary school. Principles such as maths, measurement, critical thinking and evidence-based reasoning. Many young earth and anti-evolution arguments fly in the face even of those principles at a very fundamental level. Besides, even if your own job doesn’t require that level of understanding, it’s all too easy to end up working with colleagues whose own jobs or whose past experience does.
