Is God evil for allowing all this pain and suffering exist in this world?

Isn’t it odd that the distinction of the Abrahamic religion was that it did reject human sacrifice to God. So what happened at the atonement, the act of bringing humans and God closer together? Did it bring God closer to humans by forgiving them or did it bring humans closer to God by showing them that there is another life after death, by the way not a physical one but by realising that Jesus lives on in us, thus that we find life in him?

By the way, do you have a bible that says “if you eat from that tree I am going to kill you”? If not, why would one think that death is God’s revenge on humans?

Only the omnipotence of a dreamer in his dream means he can do whatever you say by whatever means you care to dictate. Logical coherence doesn’t matter because the dream isn’t real. And that sort of omnipotence is a completely empty one which any kid on the block has.

But this is a good observation and question.

He not only could but He did quite frequently. Anyway, it is absurd to think God needs some sort of special song and dance in order to forgive.

Yes. This is turning Christianity back into the same sort of magical appeasement religion we find in the pagan religions, when the fact is that Jesus simply said, “your sins are forgiven, so go and sin no more.”

correction, why ALLOY the execution of His own son? Remember, it was said of Judas, “it would be better if that man had never been born.”

It is almost as if Christianity has turned the pagan sort of religion upside down and it is God who seeks to appease US! After all we are the ones with this notion of appeasement while God forgave so easily. Could it not be we who require this sacrifice of His son in order to forgive ourselves and be willing to change. Actually, it often seems to be the case that only when our sin brings the ultimate tragedy of the death of an innocent that we muster the will to change. And this is the common Christian experience, that we look at the cross and repent because we know that WE did that!

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Good thoughts…All of your thoughts and your narratives make good sense to me. My statement that God could have allowed forgiveness without the sacrifice was meant to counter the frequently held dogma that Christ’s crucifixion was both necessary and sufficient for our salvation. Apparently you agree with me that it was neither. So if it was unnecessary, why do we think He allowed such a thing? Furthermore, if it was necessary, what about the (estimated) 200,000,000 folks who died before Christ’s arrival? Sad for them?

Regarding your “correction” of me when I said God executed His own Son, you must not agree with the many who express belief that God was in total control of the events of that period, for if He was, then he in fact is guilty as charged. And that raises an even larger question of whether He exercises control over current events. Or even has any desire to do so (bad things happening to good people troubles us all). Of course, without bad things happening there would be no room left for any of us :slight_smile: slight_smile:

Your noted irony of our faith/religion being turned on its head is good. Grace and salvation comes quite easily to us if it comes simply through our faith, but more difficultly if it requires total surrender of all thoughts, actions and feelings. Either way, it is almost as if many now think that it is God seeking to appease us, rather than vice-versa!

This logic is not mystifying. I.e. by what logic does a father provide a benefit to others suffering unbearable suffering by encouraging/allowing the unbearable suffering of His Son?

God is omnipotent. He could have allowed the narrative of forgiveness of our sins without sacrificing His Son but it wouldn’t have the same therapeutic, transformative, uniting, levelling, egalitarian impact. There is nothing to actually forgive on His part of course. It’s more the other way around.

Furthermore He didn’t sacrifice His son, let alone execute him. His son went out of his way to sacrifice himself, freely chose to be ignominiously executed. This is the mystery of Christ.

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sounds to me like a pubertarian judging his parents claiming superior moral authority. “guilty as charged :-)” Eaten some apple lately?

That father can allow for the physical death of his son as he allows the physical death of every person because in him we overcome this world to enter eternal life. In him you can overcome this world and like Jesus on the cross even in your darkest moment sing a song that comforts you in the knowledge of the outcome as it is summarised in the king James Bible:
" They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this ."
In the mind of the intellectually confused Jesus died to satisfy God’s need to see humans die in revenge for sin. They can’t fathom that death is the logical consequence of separating your “self” from the eternal God, not a punishment, because they use their own flawed morality and impotence.

by the logic that allowed him to make that suffering bearable by being in God’s presence. His omnipotence is shown in his ability to turn the symbols of hate and oppression into beacons of love and hope, in the conception as well as in the death of Jesus. That is what faith in God is all about. What we perceive as evil and suffering is that bit of reality that does not conform with our wishful thinking. In your eyes the death of Jesus was an act of evil for which you want to “judge God” which just demonstrates a distorted view of reality. Christians look at it as an act of love that gives us hope. To some who look at it in the hope of becoming eternal selfs, that hell will be theirs when they get there. To those who want to be like Jesus, their wish for eternal life will be granted in loosing their self to live in the hearts of others for eternity. So we better learn in time not to be a cling-on

@NickolaosPappas & friends

It is strange to me that you keep talking about suffering turning people against God, when we ourselves can see an atrocious example of undeserved mass suffering in the war against Ukraine, which has not turned people against God. What is going on here?

I understand that point well. My point had nothing to do with whether He COULD allow for it. My point was why WOULD he allow for it. What purpose was served? He could have simply declared it to be.

Similarly, I think you are telling me what you believe is God’s power to do it, rather than delve into my question of why would He, when it could have been done in so many less violent ways.

Your statement later is a sound one, when you say “Christians look at it as an act of love”. I absolutely agree with that, since every single Bible Study continually and consistently states this to be the truth. And also it has become dogma such that it is even now considered to be a required component of our faith in order to receive the Grace of God. My question relates only to whether (or not) it was necessary and/or sufficient. If it is either, then how do we reconcile that with our beliefs that the 200M people (more or less) born and died before Christ’s birth were candidates for salvation?

Good thought, but don’t you think that makes my question even more relevant? In other words, you are agreeing with me that He could have offered us salvation without His Son dying a violent death. But the crucifixion got more attention. Word spread faster because of the act. It certainly presaged our Christian beliefs, and on that we clearly agree.

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What I said doesn’t really address that question either.

The easy solution is that the crucial effect doesn’t take place in physical time and space anyway. But then does that mean what we do in life doesn’t matter? Not at all. But I would challenge and reject the Gnostic Pascal wager notion that we are saved by the work of believing dogma or having the name of “Jesus” in our brain when we die like a password for the heavenly gates. God is still asking us to have faith, and I don’t think that is what faith is about, quite the contrary I think that this saved by mental works notion is entitlement, which is the opposite of faith.

I wrote a lot more but decided I should leave it here for now. This is one of those topics where I could say… don’t get me started. LOL

Your question is therefore, deconstructs to, why do we need salvation? What is it?

If God is sovereign, all-knowing, and good, then whence evil? How are we to think of evil without impugning either the integrity of God or his capacity to change things?

The Bible as a whole, and sometimes in specific texts, presupposes or teaches that both of the following propositions are true:

    1.      God is absolutely sovereign, but his sovereignty never functions in such a way that human responsibility is curtailed, minimized, or mitigated.
    2.      Human beings are morally responsible creatures—they significantly choose, rebel, obey, believe, defy, make decisions, and so forth, and they are rightly held accountable for such actions; but this characteristic never functions so as to make God absolutely contingent

There is no sense in which the Scriptures picture God as contingent. He talks with people, he responds to them; he can even be said (in almost forty cases) to “repent” of his decisions (KJV), that is, to change his mind or to relent in his declared purposes. But in no case is human responsibility permitted to function in such a way that God becomes absolutely contingent: that is, God is absolutely stymied, thwarted, frustrated, blocked, quite unable to proceed with what he himself had absolutely determined to do.

To put it bluntly, God stands behind evil in such a way that not even evil takes place outside the bounds of his sovereignty, yet the evil is not morally chargeable to him: it is always chargeable to secondary agents, to secondary causes.

On the other hand, God stands behind good in such a way that it not only takes place within the bounds of his sovereignty, but it is always chargeable to him, and only derivatively to secondary agents.

In other words, if I sin, I cannot possibly do so outside the bounds of God’s sovereignty (or the many texts already cited have no meaning), but I alone am responsible for that sin—or perhaps I and those who tempted me, led me astray, and the like. God is not to be blamed. But if I do good, it is God working in me both to will and to act according to his good pleasure. God’s grace has been manifest in my case, and he is to be praised.

When the Bible speaks of God’s permission of evil, there is still no escape from his sovereignty. A sovereign and omniscient God who knows that, if he permits such and such an evil to occur it will surely occur, and then goes ahead and grants the permission, is surely decreeing the evil.

But the language of permission is retained because it is part of the biblical pattern of insisting that God stands behind good and evil asymmetrically (in the sense already defined). He can never be credited with evil; he is always to be credited with the good.

He permits evil to occur; the biblical writers would not similarly say that he simply permits good to occur! So even though permission in the hands of a transcendent and omniscient God can scarcely be different from decree, the use of such language is part and parcel of the insistence that God is not merely transcendent, but that he is also personal and entirely good.

That God’s permission of evil does not in any way allow evil to escape the outermost bounds of God’s sovereignty is presupposed when we are told, for instance, that the Lord persuades the false prophet what to say (Ezek. 14:9), or that his wrath incites David to sin by taking a census (2 Sam. 24:1). When the Chronicler describes the same incident and ascribes the effective temptation to Satan (1 Chron. 21:1), this is not in contradiction of the passage in 2 Samuel (for the biblical writers, including the Chronicler, are far too committed to compatibilism to allow such a view), but in complementary explanation.

One can say that God sends the strong delusion, or one can say that Satan is the great deceiver: it depends on whether the sovereign transcendence of God is in view, or his use of secondary agents

It is utterly essential to doctrinal and spiritual well-being to maintain the diverse polarities in the nature of God simultaneously.

For instance, if you work through the biblical passages that bluntly insist God in some sense stands behind evil, and do not simultaneously call to mind the countless passages that insist he is unfailingly good, then in a period of suffering you may be tempted to think of God as a vicious, sovereign thug.

If you focus on all the passages that stress God’s sovereign sway over everything and do not simultaneously call to mind his exhortations to pray, to intercede, to repent, to examine yourself, you may turn into a Christian fatalist, and mistake your thoughtless stoicism for stalwart faith. The same lesson can be configured in many more ways: provide your own examples of distortion.

The mystery of providence defies our attempt to tame it by reason.

I do not mean it is illogical; I mean that we do not know enough to be able to unpack it and domesticate it. Perhaps we may gauge how content we are to live with our limitations by assessing whether we are comfortable in joining the biblical writers in utterances that mock our frankly idolatrous devotion to our own capacity to understand. Are we embarrassed, for instance, by the prophetic rebuke to the clay that wants to tell the potter how to set about his work (Isa. 29:16; 45:9)? Is our conception of God big enough to allow us to read “The LORD works out everything to its proper end—even the wicked for a day of disaster” (Prov. 16:4) without secretly wishing the text could be excised from the Bible?

We voice our “Amen!” to many truths written by Paul. Can we voice our “Amen!” to this? “One of you will say to me: ‘Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?’ But who are you, a mere human being, to talk back to God?” (Rom. 9:19–20).

This side of glory, at least, there is no other answer. Paul is prepared not only to live with it, but to tease out its implications: “ ‘Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, “Why did you make me like this?” [Isa. 29:16; 45:9].’

Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for disposal of refuse?

What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory …?” (Rom. 9:21–23).

These thoughts are from D. Carsdon

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I’m so tempted to attack your intelligence here in an ad honimem argument (because what you just said is plain stupid)but I’ll hold on. So tell me . Do you see people getting more religious troughout the war?

Do you have any statistics? Do you have any sort of personal experience with native Ukrainian citizens or refugees that told you themselves they became more religious when the war started?

They say ad honimem is one of the worst types of arguments to be used in a debate. I don’t really see any other argument that could fit to what you wrote above

If so, it was not intended as such. My use of the term ‘salvation’ was simply to use a common description of the promise made by God to those who believe. So my question remains as to why would God feel the need to allow such a gruesome death of His own Son just to confer a benefit to the rest of us (call it salvation or whatever you want). That reward could have been simply declared.

I wish I could remember who it was, but I remember watching a Youtube video a while back where the problem of suffering led to deconversion. By his own account, he was a devout Christian and had gone on several missionary trips. However, it was those missionary trips that exposed him to the terrible suffering that Christians are going through in less developed countries. At some point, he could no longer believe in a loving God who let people suffer so greatly.

It does happen. I’m not saying deconversion should happen due to the problem of suffering, only that it does.

Nobody would have heard it. And unbelievable transcendence doesn’t depend on belief.

To suggest that God would not be able to spread the powerful message of salvation (as a gift) seems shortsighted at the very least, and insultingly small-minded at the worst. To do so says that God is omniscient, omnipotent and forgiving, but He considered the best method of broadcasting the message was to allow the crucifixion of His only Son. Surely there were better ways to do that.

So Jesus suffered just to get the salvation message heard.

He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.
1 Peter 2:24 ESVUK - He himself bore our sins in his body on - Bible Gateway

In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace
Ephesians 1:7 ESVUK - In him we have redemption through his - Bible Gateway

 
I am not prepared to give a treatise on why Jesus’ bloody death was necessary for forgiveness and the atonement it bought for those who truly believe – it has been done by more learned than I (which is not hard to be), but it was.

That concept is one that troubles (most of) us all. And the issue revolves around the stipulation that God is not only sovereign, but exercises that ability/quality on everyone and for everything. I wonder how much it would threaten our beliefs and faith to suggest that God did indeed set everything in motion for us to exist, but by giving us free-will He has taken a completely hands-off position since the final miracles of the era circa 20-33 AD. To assume such would of course be discounting all things that so many of us attribute to prayer and to the miraculous happenings that we see on occasion. Just a thought…and I understand that it runs counter to (most) current teachings.

From the experience of WW2 we know that the main thing that saved Russia from Hitler was the Orthodox Church. People would not fight for Stalin or Communism, but they would fight for their survival and their God.

Vincent Van Gogh was a minister before he became a full-time artist. He gave up his ministry because he could not bear to see the grinding poverty of his poor flock.

People who are suffering seem to be able to live with it better than those who are willing to judge God for allowing them to suffer. With whom should we be most upset, those humans like Putin who are responsible for war and poverty or God Who gives us all we need to overcome war and poverty?

Nope. Not without showing His hand. Not without humanity having a global and personal close encounter that changes everything. What we hope for in the myth of the Second Coming. The message IS the death of God, but not in the Nietzschean sense.