Genes come and go but the DNA system itself preservers through time. Consider DNA from a physics perspective rather than biological perspective . DNA exists not as just a random entity but as an ordered state (defined by Gibbs energy) or system that sustains through time. DNA is a higher ordered state of matter that not only sustains through time but can increase its ordered energy by forming changes in the DNA that result in adaptations to aid its survival. Life is Gods creation of order in the universe. He creates life and order from the randomness of clay. And humans are not just survival machines but are clearly a higher ordered state than other life forms. We have abilities to understand, adapt, control and harness the world about us that no other life form has. This ability is provided for by the information stored in our DNA. We are made in Godâs image. Again that is pretty amazing! I suspect that may be a real problem for an non believer like Dawkins that live in a Godless, random, chaotic and purposeless world. Life is creation of order and evolution is the way by which that order can be increased. If there is a purpose then there is a God and if there is a God then there is Jesus Christ.
Iâm sorry Scott, but Iâm not seeing your case here.
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DNA exists not as just a random entity but as an ordered state (defined by Gibbs energy)
Iâm being a bit pedantic butâŚ
The free energy of a random sequence of DNA is the same as that from any organism. One can test that by burning samples of each in a calorimeter. âOrderâ in thermodynamics is often a different thing that organizational âorderâ. For example, the thermodynamic entropy of a deck of cards is the same regardless if itâs well shuffled or ordered by ranks and values.
Iâm not sure we can make the case that humans âare clearly a higher ordered state than other animalsâ. Humans and apes have very slight differences their DNA sequences. There are amoeba and toads with larger genomes. Perhaps you are bringing in some other metric besides informational or thermodynamic order.
Yeppers, technically every organism currently alive is the apex of evolution, even the worms of todayâs blog.
Thank you for your comments Argon and Phil.
From my point of view letâs start with that we are ordered entities. All Life sustains its ordered state. The DNA is an ordered entity that contains information and programming if you will. You may call this an organizational state I will call this organizational order. In information theory they use the term entropy and negtropy. Regardless, The DNA organizational order is designed to sustain the DNA existence. All life is an an ordered state that sustains through time.
Humans are a higher ordered state. In essence DNA contains a program for sustaining the order of the DNA. Genes are merely words in the sentence of the paragraph of the book of the DNA program. There is functional and hierarchical programming in the DNA. A functionally more complex organism requires a more complex program. Not all DNA is the same as there is organizational structure within the DNA that essentially allows for more informational storage per unit. (Think transistor vs silicon chip) and the more sophisticated DNA program encodes for more complex computational abilities (think ENIAC vs my iPhone 6) that provide adaptive advantages to the organism. The information density and hierarchical order is greater in a higher ordered organism. Gene regulation of expression activity and repression are all important in determining the biological function and activity. This all adds up to an ordered state of information encoded in the DNA. This information or program is a form of order and it is greater in higher forms of life. In fact it defines them. The fact that some lower species have the same or more DNA than Humans supports that the complex information program in the DNA is greater in the higher species.
Very interesting, but it suffers from the same problem that other views of evolution, concentration on only one aspect of change, Variation. Natural Selection plays no role, when it is Natural Selection that determines the form of the Variation or information.
Organisms must adapt to the conditions of the environmental niche in which they live. Their ability to adapt determines their ability to survive and flourish. The dinosaurs were unable to adapt when their ecological niche disappeared as the result of changing climate, while many birds and mammals did.
Order does not come from DNA per se, but by the adaption of organisms to the environment found in the DNA. This why the Selfish Gene is false, and ecological evolution is true.
Roger. Thank you for your insight into this. I agree with you that environmental variation is one driving force of selection. The DNA program has been written by Godâs natural selection. The DNA program itself allows for some adaptation to changes in their environment. If the code doesnât sustain life in its environment (niche) it is deleted and perhaps evolutionary changes in the DNA (and program) are selected for the new environment or conditions.
The DNA itself is an ordered physical entity. The DNA also codes for a program ( Informational order) to create life and for life to sustain in its niche. In this sense, The DNA codes for a program for creating and maintaining life and the DNA itself. So it can be said the program encoded in the DNA codes for creating and maintaining order ( both physical and informational). So the purpose of the program is in essence for the DNA to create and maintain order. If that is the purpose of the the life code program is that not the purpose of life? To create order and sustain order.
Thank you for your response, but before I respond I need to take care of a little housekeeping. When you use this code @Relates, the web sends me c copy of your message. If not I need to monitor the blog to see if you have responded. I was criticized earlier this past week for pointing this out, but it does make a difference.
Again I think that we are getting closed to the answer. To say that the purpose of DNA is to create and maintain order true in some sense, but is too basic to be our answer. The purpose of all nature is to create and maintain order, it is a tautology to say that DNA or Variation creates and maintains order. Also Variation, the creation of forms of DNA does not exist in a vacuum, but with Natural Selection to create and maintain order through Evolution.
Variation by itself does not create and maintain order. DNA does not create âorderâ apart from the ecology. Humans have evolved opposable thumbs unlike any other creature, because we need opposable thumbs to use tools, unlike any other creature. Other creatures have unique features to adapt to their environments.
God created the universe and the planet earth to be the home for human beings. Thar does not preclude possibility that there might be other âearthsâ and other forms of life like us. The purpose of evolution is to create humanity and all of the other forms of life found on our planet.
God told humans and other forms of life to multiply and inhabit the earth. This what we have done using diversification and symbiosis. This is the meaning and purpose of evolution.
Existence is not purpose, or the Selfish Gene would have purpose. On the other hand existence needs purpose, which is why the Selfish Gene does not exist.
I do think that we are moving closer together on this. I understand your comment on variation in environment and conditions select for adaptations that will allow the life form to survive in that environment. To me survival is existence of the physical ordered state. Clearly the first rule of life is existence. Survival is a perogrative. It is in the life program from day one. To continue to exist in an ordered state. This is basic but essential. It is the underlying rule simple and sweet. DNA is the fundamental sustaining form of life through the ages. It form and and function alone is the key to understand the creation of life and and its evolution through time.
DNA stores a program in its code that provides the organisms ability to respond to some type of variation that allows the organism to maintain its state of existence and order. This program is the key to all life. DNA is the program that has been written by Godâs natural selection. The DNA program itself allows for some adaptation to changes in their environment. If the code doesnât sustain life in its environment (niche) it is deleted and perhaps evolutionary changes in the DNA (and program) are selected for the new environment or conditions. DNA is not just a random ordering of nucleotide base pairs but contains specific information to what Is in essence a program to allow the organism to survive. This information must encode for the ability to extract more free energy from the environment than free energy can be extracted from the organism so that the order of existence can be maintained. This involves developing ability to extract or control energy from a source of free energy while resisting or controlling external extractors of free energy. Informationally the program must be devised to extract energy from its environment and conserve energy loss and decay . So changes in the environment energy sources and extractors can result in changes in the DNA program to source and conserve energy.
Existence is not static. The existence of DNA is the result of both Variation and Natural Selection. They are both important and necessary.
I just watched two one hour programs on evolution on the Smithsonian Channel by David Attenbrough. They were titled âFrom the Seas to the Skiesâ and âDawn of Mammalsâ I think these videos shed much light on the topic âis evolution randomâ The Bible is not a science book. The views expressed by Bio logos are very close to my long held views about evolution and the Bibleâs creation story. I am not a YEC.
Roger. Sorry I wasnât heading down that road. Jesus is our Savior and in Him we have eternal life. But when talking about life and evolution existence is important. Natural Selection is in essence selecting for existence vs. non existence. Donât be confused here. An organism lives and dies but the DNA continues. That is the road that I am on.
Thanks for your comments. I am not sure what you are saying that DNA is just the result of variation and natural selection. Pretty sure that rocks donât evolve. I prefer to say DNA contains a program designed to adapt to its environment and evolve by natural selection.
I am sorry, but that is not true. DNA is not an abstraction. DNA is a program in each and every living being which governs how each life form functions. DNA is the product of evolution. It does not produce evolution. That is what Dawkins the materialist, claims.
God is not a thing, but a living process, more like ecology than DNA. Jesus is the Logos. If you make DNA the source of evolution, you leave no place for God, just as Dawkins does.
Two very simple statements, Roger, but their deep implications do not seem to have been fully comprehended by many responders on this Forum. In describing the appearance of DNA upon a lifeless, meteor-bombarded earth, we scientists are currently as the famous cartoon portrays us: âAnd here, at this point, we postulate a miracle.â I for one am NOT uncomfortable with the terms Natural and Supernatural. A, C, T, & G are letters that form the Logos in the Natural world; Jesus is the Logos in the Supernatural world. Oversimplified, no doubt, but it satisfies my mind.
God bless,
Al Leo
[quote=âSkoshland, post:22, topic:5886â] @Jon_Garvey @Celticroots
Our very existence proves that evolution has a purpose. From my point of view life is just the existence of the DNA system and the information that it contains. **_[quote=âSkoshland, post:22, topic:5886â]
Evolution is more the information gained in the DNA to sustain its existence than the physical form of life per se. This ability is our spirit which is beyond the physical existence.
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Excellent post, Scottâat least I find it so. But I wonder if some points should be given more emphasis so that, overall, it assuages the fears that many evangelicals have that âsurvival by natural selectionâ seems to be an unloving and uncaring way for God to have created me. Many folks would like to see evidence that God had humankind in mind when He began to create through evolution. Using evidence for the evolution in bacteria is hardly reassuring in this regard. So itâs OK if only one in a hundred bacteria are killed by an antibiotic as long as that one survives and carries the altered DNA. But is there any scientific reason to believe that evolution can work differently for us humans? Is there a further purpose for me in life, other than to pass on my DNA?
I believe there is. More importantly, for Catholics at least, Pope John Paul II, officially supported this view. And as I pointed out in a recent post which examined Richard Dawkins position (in The Acncestorâs Tale) even the Evangelical Atheist seems to support it. (Doesnât that take the cake: Dawkins supporting a great Leap and forward; not tiny steps with no direction.) If the current archeological evidence holds up (perhaps a big IF), the Great Leap Forward which marked the appearance of modern humans might have been a unique, epigenetic event that produced a creature that could be considered imago Dei and thus especially loved by God. Currently science cannot prove we are special, but it doesnât make it silly to believe we are.
So, for me, the Jury is still out.
Al Leo
Leo. Thank you for your note your thoughtful and interesting note. I do believe that we are made in the image of our God. I am sure that none of us are in a position to tell God how to do His work. His work is always amazing and beautiful. If you consider life as an entity that must be able to draw energy from its environment while reducing energy loss maintaining its state of order. In a sense the life entity contains a program in its DNA that allows control of the free energy of itself and control of some forms of free energy from its environment. I think that evolutionary process selects entities that can further control this environmental free energy and their own free energy. It has been a sort of evolutionary arms race over the millennia. Where this ability is further advanced as life entities compete to survive. Over time there has been large periods of time where animal life has advanced to very sophisticated behavior and abilities to extract energy and maintain their ordered energy but never to the abilities of Humans. Eventually over millions of years some type of catastrophe have caused a mass extinction and those life would start its evolutionary process over again. You must consider humans ability to control its environment and our conscious ability to learn and advance these ability as a mirror of Godâs ability that is matched by no other life form on earth. I think that this is Gods design in our creation. How He got us here is by His will and purpose. Is it not evidence of His intent that we are here? Is He not the great I Am, supreme consciousness and is He not the Creator and in control of all and is He not the alpha and omega that is for all time.
Scott, I cannot help but wonder if you (and the others [e.g. @Relates] that I have challenged with my interpretation of the Great Leap Forward hypothesis) arenât overdoing this Forumâs policy of âGracious Dialogâ and ignoring the âsalty responseâ part. Surely someone out there must think: âAl Leo has lost his credibility as a scientist when he interprets the evidence for the GLF as support for the Catholic position that modern humans are products of forces other than those of largely random Natural Selection that produced other life on earth. Is he ready to abandon Darwin for Lamarck?â
Where are my critics? There must be many. I hope this brings them out of the woods.
In any case, I do appreciate your kind words, Scott. Our Word Views have much in common.
Al Leo
Al,
The problem with the terms Natural and Supernatural is that they do not fit the world we live in. For instance most people agree that the Natural cannot think, but humans can think. Does that make humans Supernatural? I think not. But we are rational and spiritual beings as well as physical. This means that we must rethink what it means to be Natural and Supernatural.
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I do not want to confuse the physical with God, but I must point out that went humans seek evidence for the existence of God, the first place we look is to the heavens, the universe for the Power of God as evidenced in the Creation. The Universe is evidence for the Power and existence of God the Father, Creator of the heavens and earth.
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The universe is not only evidence for God the Father, but also evidence for God the Son, Jesus the redeemer and Logos. Science and life are based on the fact that the universe is not chaos, but cosmos, harmony and order. Jesus is the source of this harmony and order, but also restores this harmony and order as the Logos, which is Rational. The universe is rationally structured, humans are rational and God is the Source of rationality.
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The universe is not only evidence for the power and rationality of God, the universe is evidence for the goodness of God and Godâs love for humans and Godâs Creation. This spiritual aspect of the universe is evidence for God the Holy Spirit. If the universe is not evidence of power, rationality, and love, then it is not from God as God has revealed Godself. It works both ways.
If Natural Selection is based on conflict, rather than love, then it is not from God and life based on conflict is from the Evil One, just as victory based on lies cannot stand because it is from Satan whom is the Father of Lies. ,
Roger
Teilhardâs idea that the Universe has developed (evolved?) through three stages, Cosmosphere, Biosphere, and Noosphere, might be developed with the theological implications that you state: namely, that the Universe proclaims a trinitarian God. I donât know if he attempted that sort of correlation. Certainly the Vatican was not open to that sort of interpretation. Regardless, Teilhardâs appeal to me is the rational hypothesis that the Great Leap Forward marks the beginning of the Noosphere, and it also marks the beginning of a creature (humankind) that owes its unique nature, not to Darwinian evolution that produced Homo sapiens, but to its rational consciousness, to its ability to seek out its purpose in Life; not to just pass on its genetic heritage.[quote=âRelates, post:58, topic:5886â]
If Natural Selection is based on conflict, rather than love, then it is not from God and life based on conflict is from the Evil One
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As you have consistently pointed out, Roger, as science gains more understanding of the mechanisms involved in evolution, it becomes more apparent that cooperation has led to more significant advances than has conflict. If symbiosis (mitochondria and chloroplasts within cells) had never occurred, the biosphere would never have attained the richness that it now has. But I think one cannot arbitrarily state that a God of love would never allow conflict to exist alongside of cooperation in His method of creation. I believe that the creation of humankind, as an image of its Creator, also marked the initiation of the Noosphere where the balance between conflict and cooperation could be rationally determined.
Al Leo
No, there is no evolutionary arms race. The dinosaurs were very well adapted to their environment. This is Godâs plan for the development of Godâs Creation to create and make a home for human beings which is not based on arms, but Symbiosis.